@ Subtitles generated with Happy Scribe 00:00:22:28 00:00:24:16 In nineteen and thirty 00:00:24:36 00:00:28:31 I came to Chapel Hill to work for you, and 00:00:28:51 00:00:33:12 Mr. Willen carried me down to the president's home, 00:00:33:32 00:00:39:12 told me what he wanted done and it was about a week before I ever saw you. 00:00:39:32 00:00:42:94 So one day you came in and I was in the living room 00:00:43:14 00:00:45:24 doing some work in there. 00:00:45:44 00:00:49:68 And you spoke to me as if you'd known me all my life. 00:00:49:88 00:00:52:80 That made me feel mighty good. 00:00:53:00 00:00:57:68 And after that, I think you told me you had to go to Albemarle. 00:00:57:88 00:01:00:52 And I took you and Mr. House to Albemarle 00:01:00:57 00:01:02:32 to a funeral. 00:01:02:52 00:01:08:76 And from Albemarle we went on to- to Carolina Beach down in South Carolina. 00:01:08:96 00:01:10:80 You stayed, 00:01:10:28 00:01:13:20 spent the night and I came back the next day. 00:01:13:40 00:01:15:92 Well, after I come back to Chapel Hill 00:01:16:12 00:01:17:44 I had 00:01:18:56 00:01:19:72 started out of work and 00:01:19:92 00:01:20:96 Miss Kate was there. 00:01:21:16 00:01:23:40 She was keeping house, you know. 00:01:23:60 00:01:25:80 And you know I had to look after your 00:01:26:00 00:01:28:49 clothes, buy all your socks and shirts, 00:01:28:69 00:01:32:15 and pick out your suits and buy your shoes, you know. 00:01:32:35 00:01:35:68 And at time, you wear the same size now, 00:01:35:88 00:01:39:92 but we had to buy boys' shoes and boys' shoes were cheap. 00:01:40:12 00:01:42:76 To get a pair of shoes, three dollar and a half for you. 00:01:42:96 00:01:46:00 So I had to do all that buying. 00:01:46:20 00:01:49:20 And after you married, you remember 00:01:49:40 00:01:53:00 we went to Edenton to the wedding 00:01:53:20 00:01:58:92 and I- we stopped in Raleigh and bought a wedding ring in Raleigh. 00:01:59:12 00:02:00:52 And we went on to Edenton, 00:02:00:72 00:02:06:80 and I had to go up in the hotel to go over the wedding ceremony with you. 00:02:07:00 00:02:09:52 - You were one of the few attendants at my wedding. 00:02:09:72 00:02:14:72 - Yes, I think I was the only- other than the family there. 00:02:14:72 00:02:16:48 And we went from there to Myrtle Beach. 00:02:16:68 00:02:20:96 And you- I left you there and I came back to Chapel Hill. 00:02:21:16 00:02:24:86 And after Ms. Graham got back to Chapel Hill 00:02:24:17 00:02:29:91 and we got straightened out, I never saw two people that 00:02:30:12 00:02:35:36 I had ever come in contact with were as loving as you and Ms. Graham. 00:02:35:56 00:02:38:52 You treated me just like I was one in the family. 00:02:38:72 00:02:41:72 I didn't feel like I was a servant or nothing like that 00:02:41:92 00:02:44:92 because you treated me so nice. 00:02:45:12 00:02:49:20 And you just stood there one time 'bout what would you call me? 00:02:49:20 00:02:51:92 You didn't want to call me the chauffer, and you didn't want to call me the butler 00:02:52:12 00:02:55:40 you finally said we would just call him Hubert. 00:02:55:60 00:02:58:68 So I think that was mighty nice. 00:02:58:88 00:03:00:94 And we had- you remember the boys, 00:03:01:14 00:03:04:56 that we had there at the house [inaudible] help students? 00:03:04:76 00:03:06:76 We had about eight at one time. 00:03:06:96 00:03:10:32 And I was the fun- to get out and 00:03:10:52 00:03:12:40 work for all those eight boys to do. 00:03:12:60 00:03:14:20 You turned 'em over to me. 00:03:14:20 00:03:15:76 Of course some of 'em didn't do much 00:03:15:96 00:03:18:20 and some of 'em were very nice. 00:03:18:40 00:03:21:53 And we had one fellow there, you know, 00:03:21:73 00:03:25:82 that they- they put in your hands, was the Chinaman. 00:03:26:24 00:03:26:72 - No Japanese. 00:03:26:92 00:03:30:20 - Japanese, yeah. Fukasato from Japan. 00:03:30:20 00:03:31:64 - You want me to tell about that? - Yeah. 00:03:31:84 00:03:34:20 I'd like for you to tell about him. 00:03:34:40 00:03:41:92 - Fukasato was a pacifist in Japan, and it became uncomfortable for him 00:03:42:12 00:03:46:24 because the military were in power then and 00:03:46:24 00:03:49:20 Dr. Charles Lee Raper, Dean of the Graduate School, 00:03:49:40 00:03:55:32 had awarded him a scholarship many years before, which he didn't use. 00:03:55:52 00:04:01:92 But when the military pressure was against him as a pacifist, he- he saw this old 00:04:01:92 00:04:04:20 scholarship to the University of North Carolina 00:04:04:40 00:04:06:12 so he took it and brought it. 00:04:06:32 00:04:08:44 Of course, it was way out of date. 00:04:08:64 00:04:12:32 But here he arrived and 00:04:12:60 00:04:15:24 his English had gotten weak, too. 00:04:15:44 00:04:19:56 But Dean Pearson very 00:04:19:76 00:04:21:56 graciously and 00:04:22:24 00:04:30:36 Dean House then, and I all said, well, let's take him in, this situation. 00:04:30:68 00:04:33:76 And the fellow was a very fine man. 00:04:33:91 00:04:36:48 He's well on in life by the way. 00:04:36:68 00:04:38:88 But because of his 00:04:39:80 00:04:41:20 having lost facility in the English 00:04:41:40 00:04:47:68 language, he didn't pass his courses and under the law of the country then, 00:04:48:80 00:04:53:40 if you didn't pass your courses, you would be deported. 00:04:53:60 00:05:01:12 So and you had the university departments had to report on the progress of his work. 00:05:01:32 00:05:05:42 And though a fine man and a man and a good mind, 00:05:05:24 00:05:08:92 he just couldn't handle the English graduate work. 00:05:08:95 00:05:10:80 And by the way, the churches- some 00:05:11:00 00:05:14:80 of the churches of Chapel Hill also took care of him. We didn't charge him 00:05:15:00 00:05:19:40 any tuition on account of the Raper scholarship. 00:05:19:24 00:05:24:12 But the immigration authorities, when they learned that he had failed his- 00:05:24:32 00:05:28:44 had failed to pass his work satisfactorily, which was no discredit him 00:05:28:64 00:05:34:32 by the way, he did the best he could with his loss of English facility. 00:05:34:52 00:05:39:80 So they- without our knowledge, they, 00:05:39:28 00:05:44:80 put him in the- what you might say is the penitentiary in Raleigh, 00:05:45:00 00:05:47:84 these federal detention quarters. 00:05:48:12 00:05:52:68 And I think it was maybe Vermont Royster 00:05:53:12 00:05:58:40 who told me that this young- this student was locked up. 00:05:58:60 00:06:01:32 So I thought we, the university, had some 00:06:01:52 00:06:05:68 responsibility in the matter because he hadn't committed any crime, 00:06:05:88 00:06:10:28 and the immigration authorities were only obeying the law of the land. 00:06:10:40 00:06:12:80 But I thought we might get a special 00:06:12:28 00:06:16:70 dispensation, so I called Wilmington, North Carolina, and they said, 00:06:16:90 00:06:20:16 "Oh, Mr. Graham, we can't touch this. This is the law." 00:06:20:36 00:06:22:96 And I call- I said, "Well, who's your next superior?" 00:06:23:16 00:06:24:76 And they said, "Norfolk." 00:06:24:96 00:06:26:76 And I called Norfolk, 00:06:26:96 00:06:28:16 said "We can't touch it." 00:06:28:36 00:06:30:40 Said "You call the head man in 00:06:30:24 00:06:33:12 immigration in Washington." And I called Washington, 00:06:33:12 00:06:34:95 but he wasn't there he was in New York. 00:06:34:98 00:06:39:40 Took me a good part of the night to find him in New York. 00:06:39:24 00:06:43:14 And he said, no, he couldn't overrule the law. 00:06:43:34 00:06:47:72 And I said, "Well, who who has jurisdiction over this?" 00:06:47:92 00:06:49:64 He said, the Secretary of Labor 00:06:49:84 00:06:54:40 who was a labor man and it was a- you might say, a labor law, 00:06:54:60 00:06:58:00 that we shouldn't have aliens coming into the country who would 00:06:58:20 00:07:02:36 compete for jobs if they were on the labor market 00:07:02:56 00:07:06:76 and hadn't fulfilled the conditions under which they'd come. 00:07:06:86 00:07:07:76 - But let me cut in. 00:07:07:96 00:07:10:96 We ain't got much time to talk and we got a whole lot- lot to talk about. 00:07:10:96 00:07:14:80 Yeah, well, you remember he wouldn't have anything to do with nobody but me 00:07:14:28 00:07:18:20 you know, while he was around the house. He hang around me all the time. 00:07:18:40 00:07:19:72 He just detests women you know. 00:07:19:92 00:07:21:78 He wouldn't get around them at all. 00:07:21:98 00:07:24:57 - Yeah. - And, you know, during that time 00:07:24:64 00:07:29:52 and the Depression was on, was coming on bad. Places, businesses up 00:07:29:72 00:07:31:88 Franklin Street was closing down, 00:07:32:80 00:07:37:16 students were dropping out of school and didn't have many students in school. 00:07:37:36 00:07:39:60 And we started a campaign to go around 00:07:39:80 00:07:45:44 to see if we could get a student loan fund to keep these needy students in school. 00:07:45:44 00:07:47:81 And then we travel- - You're not talking about Fukasato now- 00:07:47:87 00:07:50:68 - No, no don't want to talk about Fukasato too long. 00:07:50:68 00:07:51:72 We wouldn't talk about this other thing- 00:07:51:92 00:07:54:68 - Well let me say, we got him out of jail. That's right. 00:07:54:88 00:07:58:40 And we got Fukasato out of jail. Go ahead. 00:07:58:60 00:08:01:35 - And we had to go right all over the state, 00:08:01:47 00:08:04:48 North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina 00:08:04:68 00:08:10:80 and to get people to give money to keep these students in school. 00:08:11:00 00:08:15:96 We come in at night anywhere from two to four o'clock in the morning. 00:08:16:16 00:08:21:20 You know, we left Richmond one night about 11:20, come home at night. 00:08:21:40 00:08:24:32 One night we left Winston-Salem and coming home at night, 00:08:24:52 00:08:28:28 coming down Franklin Street, you remember a car was coming up 00:08:28:48 00:08:31:40 Columbia Street just flying and he missed us 00:08:31:60 00:08:34:40 by an inch I guess. 00:08:34:24 00:08:36:88 And we'd been gone if he'd have hit us then. 00:08:37:80 00:08:40:34 And I think it was a mighty good thing that we- 00:08:40:54 00:08:43:84 - Was that in the loan fund campaign? - That was in the loan fund campaign. 00:08:43:84 00:08:46:28 I think you raised $150,000 it was 00:08:46:48 00:08:47:88 in the loan campaign. 00:08:47:88 00:08:49:88 - You know, the purpose of the loan fund was 00:08:50:80 00:08:51:48 to lend the money, the loan fund was 00:08:51:68 00:08:55:52 exhausted, to get additional loan fund to lend it to the students. 00:08:55:72 00:08:58:57 So the students could pay us and we could pay the professors. 00:08:58:72 00:09:01:52 - That's right. That's right. - [crosstalk] We'd been cut off. 00:09:01:72 00:09:04:60 - And we'd done that for a good while, you know. 00:09:04:80 00:09:09:16 You know, I had to work all day and then we- we come in late at night, you know, 00:09:09:36 00:09:12:13 and put in a lot of extra time, you know, 00:09:12:33 00:09:15:12 and I wish we could call that time back now 00:09:15:32 00:09:20:26 while the university's paying for time and maybe I could collect it. So- 00:09:20:22 00:09:23:44 - You didn't get the time and a half. - No time and a half nothing. 00:09:23:64 00:09:27:52 We may get 75 and 100 hours a week going on that. 00:09:27:72 00:09:31:40 And then after that, you know, we had- 00:09:31:52 00:09:34:20 tryin' to keep 00:09:34:40 00:09:40:64 the university from raising tuition, you know, keeping the students out 00:09:40:64 00:09:42:90 you know, we went out on that you know. 00:09:42:92 00:09:45:77 - Keep the state, by state law raising - [crosstalk] State yeah 00:09:45:82 00:09:49:28 raising the tuition, you know, to keep students in school. 00:09:49:48 00:09:53:72 And we went out on that too, you know, we had to travel night and day on that, too. 00:09:53:92 00:09:57:40 - Well, you remember we got a lot of editors to write editorials. 00:09:57:24 00:09:57:80 - Yes. 00:09:58:00 00:10:02:12 - And the legislature backed us up on that because the Budget Commission had 00:10:02:32 00:10:06:76 raised our tuition rates as if we were a private institution. 00:10:06:96 00:10:09:96 And the university was founded so that 00:10:10:76 00:10:15:96 the financially but intellectually able boys could get an education. 00:10:16:16 00:10:18:70 But if you make a private institution out of us, 00:10:18:90 00:10:20:88 you'd cut out a lot of these boys, Hubert. 00:10:21:80 00:10:26:72 And- and I know you took great happiness in riding all around to talk to editors, 00:10:26:92 00:10:30:96 to write editorials against higher tuition rates 00:10:31:16 00:10:33:84 so that we wouldn't cut out our 00:10:34:40 00:10:40:35 less able boys who had fine minds and qualifications but didn't have money. 00:10:40:42 00:10:42:72 - That's right. And another thing 00:10:42:80 00:10:46:50 we traveled a whole lot about is that PWA, you know, 00:10:46:72 00:10:51:53 to get the state to adopt it, you know, so that you could have 00:10:51:25 00:10:55:36 buildings and things. And out of that came a lot of buildings. 00:10:55:56 00:10:57:32 And the people- - For all the state institutions. 00:10:57:52 00:11:00:10 - For all the state institutions. People were against- 00:11:00:30 00:11:04:52 - Some people were, as you say, were against the state participating. 00:11:04:72 00:11:10:44 But as you recall, that writing was also to talk to editors and newspaper people. 00:11:10:64 00:11:12:40 And they wrote editorials in favor 00:11:12:60 00:11:17:80 of the state participating in the PWA program. 00:11:17:28 00:11:19:60 And this- this opposition changed 00:11:19:80 00:11:25:36 with this new climate of public opinion, which came from the people, by the way. 00:11:25:56 00:11:30:40 And Governor Huey there generously called a special session 00:11:30:24 00:11:34:52 of the legislature so we could participate in the PWA program. 00:11:34:72 00:11:37:64 And as you say, that's why we were riding around again. 00:11:37:84 00:11:39:80 - That's right. 00:11:39:36 00:11:41:84 - Well, we had a lot of fun together, Hubert. 00:11:42:40 00:11:43:52 - We had a lot of fun together. 00:11:43:72 00:11:47:16 And you remember one time we went to 00:11:47:36 00:11:53:40 Nags Head and a man told us about 75 miles near way to go. 00:11:53:60 00:11:56:40 And we go down there and run a ferry, and the ferry- 00:11:56:24 00:12:00:36 last ferry had gone and we couldn't get another one. It was about dark. 00:12:00:56 00:12:03:80 And we decided we'd sit in the car all night you know. 00:12:03:28 00:12:06:36 And let down the window a little bit and the mosquitoes come in. 00:12:06:56 00:12:11:28 So we decided we'd better go back up the road and find somewhere to stay. 00:12:11:38 00:12:13:80 You remember the place that you found, 00:12:13:80 00:12:16:84 you know? We stopped at the first house we saw light in. 00:12:17:40 00:12:20:00 And the man asked- you asked the man where could I stay 00:12:20:12 00:12:22:64 you know? And he said "I don't know where he can stay." 00:12:22:84 00:12:28:00 So he finally broke down and said "I know- know a boy down the road about two miles. 00:12:28:20 00:12:30:28 You can stay down there." 00:12:30:48 00:12:32:12 And I said "Well I'll find the house." 00:12:32:32 00:12:34:44 He said "No you better not go by yourself because he'll think you're the 00:12:34:64 00:12:36:24 revenue officer." [laughter] 00:12:36:84 00:12:39:30 So he took me down there and finally turned out 00:12:39:31 00:12:41:88 I had a better place to stay than you did! [laughter] 00:12:44:80 00:12:48:44 - And in trying to save 75 miles we lost 14 hours. 00:12:48:64 00:12:51:75 - Lost 14 hours there. 00:12:51:84 00:12:55:91 - Cause there was- that the river and the sound didn't have bridges then. 00:12:55:91 00:12:57:18 -No, not it didn't. 00:12:57:20 00:13:00:28 - But the sign says stay on 75- 00:13:00:48 00:13:04:72 no, stay on 90 and save 75 miles. 00:13:04:92 00:13:09:96 So we stayed on 90 and saved 75 miles but lost 14 hours. 00:13:10:16 00:13:12:88 - Now, remember, that night we saw a man ragged? 00:13:13:80 00:13:18:12 That man running cross- crossed the roads at night you know. 00:13:18:32 00:13:19:92 In those woods, you know, we was crossing 00:13:20:12 00:13:22:80 that- that second bridge over? 00:13:22:88 00:13:25:35 - Yeah, yeah. I forgot about that now. 00:13:25:48 00:13:27:89 - He's terri- he's a terrible lookin' fellow. 00:13:27:28 00:13:28:52 - We oughta stop and pick him up 00:13:28:72 00:13:31:64 and you said- - I got enough for picking up. 00:13:31:71 00:13:33:56 You know, one time you picked up a man down here 00:13:33:76 00:13:38:40 at the bottom of Blake's Hill we was goin' to Raleigh? 00:13:38:24 00:13:41:40 And I didn't like the looks of the man 00:13:41:24 00:13:44:72 [inaudible] with it. You put- told him, get in. 00:13:44:92 00:13:48:26 And he asked you were the road thickly settled 00:13:48:46 00:13:51:24 from here to Raleigh and you told him no! 00:13:51:44 00:13:55:48 So I kept feelin' him watching back there 00:13:55:52 00:13:58:72 a little bit and stirrin' around like and he kept moving in the back. 00:13:58:92 00:14:00:48 I got suspicious of him. 00:14:00:48 00:14:03:00 And you know, we stopped out here at this filling station. 00:14:03:20 00:14:07:20 I pulled up and I said, "Come on, let's go and get a drink." 00:14:07:40 00:14:10:72 And I told you, "You know Frank, I don't feel like ridin' no further 00:14:10:79 00:14:12:91 with this fella in the back of the car here." 00:14:13:11 00:14:14:64 - You thought he's goin' to shoot us. 00:14:14:68 00:14:16:48 - I didn't know what he's gonna do! 00:14:16:68 00:14:20:88 And you say, "Well, all right." I went out and told him- 00:14:20:88 00:14:22:76 you told him you couldn't take him any further. 00:14:22:76 00:14:24:00 And you know what he said? 00:14:24:20 00:14:26:94 "I don't blame you." That's what he said. 00:14:26:29 00:14:28:52 I don't blame you. I don't know what he meant by that, 00:14:28:72 00:14:30:24 but I know what I felt about it. 00:14:30:44 00:14:33:52 - Yeah. I do remember that now, Hubert. 00:14:34:32 00:14:40:48 - And we- we had so many different things that we could talk about. 00:14:40:68 00:14:42:60 You know I could talk to you all day about 00:14:42:80 00:14:45:12 the different little things that we have here. 00:14:45:32 00:14:47:24 - Hubert I think you oughta tell 'em, 00:14:47:44 00:14:49:40 about what a fine person Alice, the cook, was. 00:14:49:24 00:14:52:68 - Oh, yes, yes, she was a fine person. 00:14:52:88 00:14:57:92 And I never worked with anybody any finer then she was. And we always 00:14:58:12 00:15:04:32 agreed on things and we worked together and we had- we had about- 00:15:04:56 00:15:06:84 we have freshmen, you know, we like, 00:15:07:40 00:15:09:24 now they have the freshmen, you know, 00:15:09:44 00:15:12:64 to take them out [inaudible] you know and all. 00:15:12:84 00:15:15:52 But we had to feed all the freshmen, 00:15:15:72 00:15:18:63 you know, and we had anywhere from 00:15:18:26 00:15:22:45 four and five hundred freshmen, you know, at a time, you know. 00:15:22:65 00:15:24:68 And we had just us two serving them. 00:15:24:88 00:15:28:28 And I'd be outside the window with the pitcher 00:15:28:48 00:15:30:67 pouring punch and she would be inside 00:15:30:77 00:15:34:12 handing me the punch to put on the table outside. 00:15:34:32 00:15:36:60 And it was a time. 00:15:36:80 00:15:39:80 That was- that was some time. 00:15:39:28 00:15:44:94 But those boys really, really were nice. One there was a boy that- 00:15:45:14 00:15:47:40 - The boys that stayed at our house. - Stayed at the house. 00:15:47:60 00:15:51:96 One boy he was- somebody sent you word to the boy town home 00:15:51:96 00:15:53:28 who didn't have nothing to eat. 00:15:53:48 00:15:55:44 You had me to go up there and find him. 00:15:55:59 00:15:57:44 And I went up and found the young man 00:15:57:64 00:16:03:60 brought him down. And he, you know, me and Alice both, 00:16:03:80 00:16:10:20 stole for him and fixed up a room in the garage for him and got it nice and cozy 00:16:10:40 00:16:13:92 for him until we got a place in the house for him. 00:16:14:12 00:16:18:56 And he was so nice. He would do the ironing and do everything for her. 00:16:18:76 00:16:20:32 He was a nice fellow. 00:16:20:52 00:16:22:56 And that young man he, 00:16:22:76 00:16:27:92 he had his sister and after he finished university, you know, he finished botany. 00:16:28:12 00:16:31:88 He had his sister in the woman's college in Greensboro 00:16:32:80 00:16:37:48 and she finished there and then he put his brother in school here. 00:16:37:48 00:16:39:40 I don't know how long his brother stayed here 00:16:39:24 00:16:44:28 but I know he put him in school. And he went to take, start in medicine. 00:16:44:48 00:16:47:24 He went to Virginia, took two years of medicine. 00:16:47:44 00:16:55:40 And he finished medical course and he got a job down at the sanatorium. 00:16:55:24 00:16:57:88 So now I think he's in Burlington, 00:16:58:80 00:17:00:15 a medical doctor he is. 00:17:00:35 00:17:01:12 - I don't recall his name, 00:17:01:32 00:17:02:92 but he was a wonderful boy. 00:17:03:12 00:17:04:76 - He was a wonderful boy. 00:17:04:96 00:17:06:24 He was a wonderful boy. 00:17:06:44 00:17:08:76 - Well, all those nine and ten boys we had 00:17:08:96 00:17:12:64 in the house who didn't find a place to stay 00:17:12:84 00:17:16:47 were fine boys. You would have made fine records outside since. 00:17:16:52 00:17:17:28 - Yes it did. 00:17:17:37 00:17:19:80 - And they're all your good friends. - They're all my good- 00:17:19:98 00:17:23:44 I hear- I get a card from Mr. Hewitt every- every Christmas. 00:17:23:64 00:17:25:88 He send me a Christmas card. 00:17:26:80 00:17:28:40 They were all mighty fine boys. 00:17:28:60 00:17:31:80 And I had a chance to meet some distinguished people there. 00:17:32:00 00:17:33:64 You know, we had 00:17:34:40 00:17:38:20 Mr. Churchill's son there and the Russian prince there one time. 00:17:38:40 00:17:42:99 And- and we had just numbers of people there, you know, 00:17:43:19 00:17:47:80 from abroad, you know, and I got a chance to- 00:17:47:28 00:17:50:32 and we had Mr. Lasley. You remember him? 00:17:50:52 00:17:51:56 - Laski. - Laski. 00:17:51:76 00:17:54:96 He was the man in line for prime minister 00:17:55:16 00:17:57:68 over there in England, you know. And he died. 00:17:57:88 00:18:00:32 And I got a letter right now that he wrote 00:18:00:52 00:18:06:74 me and thanked me for the service that I rendered to him. 00:18:06:27 00:18:08:12 Oh I enjoyed so much. 00:18:08:32 00:18:10:40 And I also remember the night you- 00:18:10:40 00:18:12:84 Governor Scott was there and he thought he was- he was 00:18:13:40 00:18:15:28 foolin' me. I was waitin' on table. 00:18:15:48 00:18:17:48 And he come there to get you to take 00:18:17:67 00:18:18:92 the Senate job, you know, 00:18:19:12 00:18:23:56 and I was kind of listenin' round, you know. And I kind of heard somethin' 00:18:23:56 00:18:25:76 and I knew it, but I never did say nothin' about it. 00:18:25:96 00:18:27:24 - Did you know I- 00:18:27:44 00:18:30:40 I said no twice? - Yeah. 00:18:30:24 00:18:33:80 - Two different weeks. - Yeah. 00:18:33:28 00:18:36:16 But I heard that night, the last night he was there. 00:18:36:36 00:18:39:96 And then you came. He talked to you and 00:18:40:16 00:18:42:13 I was listening too, you know. 00:18:42:33 00:18:44:84 - You would remember the night Orson Welles 00:18:45:40 00:18:46:23 came from Mars- - Yeah. 00:18:46:43 00:18:50:84 - And take over the earth? And how a lot of people got hysterical and afraid? 00:18:51:86 00:18:55:40 - That's right. - And how Alice in her home 00:18:55:24 00:18:57:48 heard all this commotion and this hysteria? 00:18:57:68 00:19:01:40 And the men of Mars were goin' to blow up the earth. 00:19:01:24 00:19:05:24 And she was listening to a radio station in New York. 00:19:05:39 00:19:06:87 I think of her quick thinking. - That's right. 00:19:07:76 00:19:11:88 - Never went beyond the sixth grade but she had a fine mind. 00:19:12:80 00:19:15:80 And she said, well, now, if Mars is come to take over the Earth, 00:19:16:00 00:19:20:68 I just turned to another station here in the same city of New York. 00:19:20:88 00:19:22:84 And she found- 00:19:23:40 00:19:26:40 she turned from the Mars men station to this other station 00:19:26:40 00:19:29:00 and there was singing and laughter. And she said, well, 00:19:29:20 00:19:34:28 no men from Mars were coming, because if they can laugh and sing in another 00:19:34:48 00:19:38:47 station in New York, the men of Mars hadn't taken over the earth. 00:19:38:74 00:19:40:68 - [laughter] Yes, she was- 00:19:40:88 00:19:45:72 she was really a- really a nice person to work with. 00:19:45:92 00:19:48:72 And I never enjoyed being with people as 00:19:48:92 00:19:53:52 much as I been with you and Ms. Marian, you know, and Ms. Kate. 00:19:53:72 00:19:58:40 Ms. Kate was wonderful, you know, and she depended on me for everything. 00:19:58:24 00:20:01:40 You know, I had to look after you and everything. 00:20:01:24 00:20:04:32 I really enjoyed my work. 00:20:04:52 00:20:07:84 - Ms. Marian was a wonderful person to live with. 00:20:08:40 00:20:11:36 - Yes, she was. She was a wonderful person. 00:20:11:56 00:20:14:52 And you never find- it is kind of hard, 00:20:14:72 00:20:18:32 you know, to some time and you're working out in service like that, 00:20:18:52 00:20:21:80 it's either the husband are good or the wife's bad, 00:20:21:28 00:20:23:87 or, but I never worked at a place where both was good. 00:20:56:60 00:21:01:84 - Dr. Graham, it's a real pleasure for me to be with you today and to 00:21:02:80 00:21:04:84 hear you discuss one of the most important 00:21:05:40 00:21:07:40 assignments among many important assignments 00:21:07:57 00:21:10:80 you've ever had. That is your principal work- 00:21:10:28 00:21:14:00 - Well you are on with me, Bill, and - your principal work with the- 00:21:14:16 00:21:15:28 - May I say this just if I may? 00:21:15:48 00:21:17:92 'Cause we don't have time to get into- 00:21:18:12 00:21:22:44 you made a suggestion during the course of our mediation there, 00:21:22:64 00:21:27:96 which had in it an inner substance that we have used ever since. 00:21:28:16 00:21:30:48 Now, it hasn't been successful for gettin' 00:21:30:68 00:21:34:56 an agreement, but it has been a fine basis to work on, 00:21:34:76 00:21:37:48 even though it has not achieved an agreement. 00:21:37:48 00:21:39:80 I've always been grateful to you, Bill, 00:21:39:84 00:21:45:18 as I was grateful to Henry Brandis for all the help he gave out in Indonesia 00:21:46:00 00:21:49:76 and to you for your clear thinking 00:21:49:96 00:21:51:77 on the Kashmir question. 00:21:51:97 00:21:54:28 - Let's go back to that just a bit. 00:21:54:48 00:21:55:88 You mentioned Henry Brandis, 00:21:56:80 00:21:59:88 now the dean of the Law School, who went with you to Indonesia. 00:22:00:80 00:22:03:44 And you went there in the capacity of a good officer. 00:22:03:64 00:22:06:68 And on many occasions, you have been an arbitrator. 00:22:06:88 00:22:14:72 But in your trip to India and Pakistan, you held a different 00:22:14:92 00:22:17:20 office and you had a different duty 00:22:17:40 00:22:21:32 to perform in the capacity of a mediator, I believe. 00:22:21:32 00:22:23:24 Now, just what is the difference between 00:22:23:44 00:22:27:92 your assignment as a good officer, an arbitrator, and a mediator? 00:22:28:12 00:22:31:28 - Yeah, well, that's- I'll tell you the truth. 00:22:31:48 00:22:34:88 When I was appointed a good officer in the Indonesian case, 00:22:35:80 00:22:38:28 I didn't have the slightest idea what a good officer was. 00:22:38:48 00:22:41:24 Of course, we had to learn sometimes the hard way. 00:22:41:31 00:22:43:16 Well, let's start with an arbitrator. 00:22:43:36 00:22:45:12 As you well know, 00:22:45:32 00:22:47:64 an arbitrator by agreement of the two 00:22:47:84 00:22:53:80 contestants, either the labor union and management or the two nations, 00:22:53:56 00:22:58:56 puts in the hands of the arbitrator the power to make the decision and by 00:22:58:76 00:23:05:40 previous agreement, whatever he says, is it. The arbitrator makes the decision. 00:23:05:80 00:23:11:52 - What about a good officer? - Now, a good officer 00:23:12:80 00:23:16:00 does not make the decision. Neither does the mediator. 00:23:16:20 00:23:19:72 They both use methods of conciliation. 00:23:19:92 00:23:22:76 Now, your question to me 00:23:22:96 00:23:27:40 causes to- us to think, well, what is the difference in the methods 00:23:27:24 00:23:30:84 of conciliation between a good officer and a mediator? 00:23:31:30 00:23:33:56 Neither one of which have a power to make the decision. 00:23:33:76 00:23:37:16 They can only make suggestions. Well, a good officer, 00:23:37:36 00:23:40:44 is really just a mail carrier. 00:23:40:64 00:23:43:48 He's a messenger boy who carries messages 00:23:43:68 00:23:46:96 over the battle lines from one government to the other. 00:23:47:16 00:23:49:64 It's the lowest form of U.N. activity. 00:23:49:84 00:23:54:52 And that's what we were in the Indonesian situation. 00:23:54:96 00:23:59:44 But a mediator, also, 00:23:59:64 00:24:02:80 uses methods of conciliation, not of decision. 00:24:03:00 00:24:05:60 He makes suggestions. 00:24:05:80 00:24:10:32 But the difference between a good officer and a mediator is here. 00:24:10:84 00:24:15:52 A mediator can not only make suggestions, but he can tell the world what his 00:24:15:72 00:24:21:00 suggestions are as a basis for rallying the moral opinion of the world. 00:24:21:20 00:24:25:12 A good officer, being just a messenger boy, 00:24:25:22 00:24:26:72 even in a desperate situation, 00:24:26:87 00:24:29:12 sometimes by agreement, he can make suggestions, 00:24:29:32 00:24:33:00 but he can't tell the world. Either side can veto his suggestions 00:24:33:00 00:24:34:52 and the world'll know nothing about it. 00:24:34:59 00:24:37:40 He can't appeal to the moral opinion of the world. 00:24:37:24 00:24:41:12 Now, it was true in the Indonesian case later, 00:24:41:32 00:24:44:00 when I was freed from an official position 00:24:44:20 00:24:48:20 from the U.N. as a representative of the United States, as 00:24:48:40 00:24:53:68 one member of the team of good officers, that I could talk on the Senate floor 00:24:53:88 00:24:57:76 and there we made an appeal for the principle 00:24:57:96 00:25:02:16 of self-determination in the Renville Agreement and in effect, 00:25:02:36 00:25:06:56 appeal not only to the Senate, but the moral opinion of the world, 00:25:06:76 00:25:09:84 when the Senate unanimously backed 00:25:10:40 00:25:11:80 the principles 00:25:12:00 00:25:15:40 of self-determination in the Renville Agreement. 00:25:15:60 00:25:18:72 But I did not have that right 00:25:18:92 00:25:21:48 as a good officer in Indonesia. 00:25:21:48 00:25:23:36 - Well let's focus for a minute- - You get the difference? 00:25:23:48 00:25:24:68 - Yes, indeed. - All right. 00:25:24:88 00:25:29:48 - Let's focus on your role as a mediator for the United Nations in this 00:25:29:68 00:25:32:80 India-Pakistan dispute. 00:25:32:28 00:25:35:12 Now when were you first appointed as a mediator? 00:25:35:32 00:25:40:48 And you were officially known, I believe, as United Nations Representative 00:25:40:88 00:25:42:20 for India and Pakistan. 00:25:42:40 00:25:44:12 - Yes, that's the official title. 00:25:44:32 00:25:49:24 It's a little misleading in its language, but I'm really the United Nations 00:25:49:44 00:25:54:60 Representative to India and Pakistan in the Kashmir Dispute. 00:25:54:80 00:25:56:48 Well, the resolution setting up 00:25:56:68 00:26:00:24 my mission, I think, was about March 30th, 1951. 00:26:00:44 00:26:04:68 I got on the job and you with me. 00:26:04:88 00:26:09:92 We arrived in Karachi, I think, on June 30th, 1951. 00:26:09:92 00:26:11:76 - Now, can we go back of your appointment 00:26:11:96 00:26:14:72 and let me ask you if there had been any 00:26:14:92 00:26:20:40 prior efforts by the United Nations to resolve 00:26:20:24 00:26:22:40 the issues between India and Pakistan? 00:26:22:60 00:26:28:56 - Well, first was the United Nations Commission of five member nations. 00:26:28:76 00:26:31:36 The Argentine, Colombia, 00:26:31:56 00:26:35:92 Belgium, Czechoslovakia, and the United States of America. 00:26:36:12 00:26:39:80 And they- they did a heroic job. 00:26:39:10 00:26:41:40 They are the ones that achieved the cease fire. 00:26:41:60 00:26:43:72 Not that- we didn't achieve the cease fire. 00:26:43:92 00:26:48:40 It was this five member nation commission. 00:26:48:24 00:26:53:78 And then after they achieved this agreement, which provided for 00:26:53:95 00:27:01:84 one, a cease fire; two, the principles of a truce; and three, a plebiscite, 00:27:02:40 00:27:06:88 they found difficulty then in getting the two countries to agree 00:27:07:80 00:27:11:52 on the conditions under which the plebiscite would be held. 00:27:11:72 00:27:14:27 - That is to have a withdrawal of their troops- 00:27:14:47 00:27:15:77 - On both sides- - On both sides. 00:27:15:82 00:27:18:14 - Prior to the time- - Complete withdrawal 00:27:18:24 00:27:20:32 of the Pakistan forces, 00:27:20:52 00:27:25:16 bulk withdrawal of the Indian forces down to the minimum 00:27:25:16 00:27:27:68 that would be necessary for law and order and defense. 00:27:27:68 00:27:31:72 - Alright, this commission was able to secure a cease fire. 00:27:31:92 00:27:35:88 - Yes. - Then after the commission's efforts, 00:27:36:80 00:27:37:36 were other efforts made 00:27:37:36 00:27:40:32 by the United Nations prior to the time that you were appointed? 00:27:40:32 00:27:44:12 - After the commission failed to get 'em to agree on the conditions for holding 00:27:44:32 00:27:51:76 the plebiscite, they appointed the then president of the Security Council- 00:27:51:96 00:27:55:27 - Sir Owen Dixon wasn't it? - No, this was before- 00:27:55:47 00:27:57:54 - General McNaughton. - General McNaughton, yes. 00:27:57:56 00:28:01:40 - General AGL McNaughton, who had commanded the Canadian forces 00:28:01:24 00:28:05:44 in the Second World War and one of the leaders in Canada today, 00:28:05:64 00:28:08:60 by the way. And the Security Council asked him 00:28:08:80 00:28:12:96 with a good deal of freedom, they gave him more freedom than they did me 00:28:13:16 00:28:16:40 to use his judgement about making suggestions. 00:28:16:24 00:28:18:56 Well, he made suggestions 00:28:18:76 00:28:22:64 which were accepted by one government, but not by the other government. 00:28:22:84 00:28:27:84 So just as the commission failed to get an agreement on the conditions for holding 00:28:28:40 00:28:32:12 the plebiscite, General McNaughton also couldn't resolve 00:28:32:32 00:28:36:00 that impasse over conditions for the plebiscite. 00:28:36:20 00:28:39:80 Then the Security Council appointed 00:28:39:28 00:28:43:88 a man who almost brought it about to tell you the truth, in my view. 00:28:44:80 00:28:45:92 And that was the- Sir Owen Dixon, 00:28:46:12 00:28:48:70 the present chief justice of the High Court of Australia. 00:28:48:77 00:28:51:43 - Of Australia. - Yeah. 00:28:51:10 00:28:57:40 And he made some very resourceful approaches and ingenious suggestions, 00:28:57:24 00:29:03:80 but failed to get an agreement in this very deep chasm. 00:29:04:00 00:29:08:44 Sometimes I think the closer we come to an agreement, the deeper the chasm between. 00:29:08:44 00:29:10:68 - I think we ought to talk about that for a moment. 00:29:10:88 00:29:14:57 Obviously, if we've had a five nation commission there, 00:29:14:77 00:29:17:12 then two other individuals at separate 00:29:17:32 00:29:20:16 times who have worked on this problem, - Yeah. 00:29:20:36 00:29:27:44 - that it must be a very difficult problem with some very deep roots behind it. 00:29:27:64 00:29:31:52 I wonder if, now, as you have gone 00:29:31:72 00:29:36:88 over to India and Pakistan to deal with this problem, which has 00:29:37:80 00:29:42:36 been under consideration for four or five years by the time that you arrive there, 00:29:42:56 00:29:47:96 if you'd briefly focus on some of the difficulties 00:29:48:16 00:29:52:96 which constituted the background of this particular differences- 00:29:53:16 00:29:58:24 or differences between these two nations. - You know- why- 00:29:58:44 00:30:01:60 what explains the depth of this dilemma? - The depth of this difficulty, 00:30:01:80 00:30:04:48 - Well- - between these two large countries. 00:30:04:68 00:30:06:21 - Go back about 5000 years 00:30:06:41 00:30:08:22 to get a runnin' start. - [crosstalk] We can't stay there long! 00:30:08:27 00:30:11:44 - Get a runnin' start. You know, 00:30:12:80 00:30:17:40 India has worked out a very remarkable cultural synthesis. 00:30:17:18 00:30:19:80 You know, the people to the north were 00:30:19:28 00:30:22:52 Indo-Aryans. The people to the south were Dravidians. 00:30:22:72 00:30:24:68 But they found a common denominator 00:30:24:88 00:30:31:32 in what we would call the Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, Hindu synthesis, 00:30:31:52 00:30:39:00 which binds all these divergent language groups and racial groups into one India. 00:30:39:20 00:30:43:52 And it's a tremendously assimilated force. 00:30:43:52 00:30:45:32 So when the Persians came in- you 00:30:45:52 00:30:49:88 remember when the Persians were reachin' over to Greece and all through 00:30:50:80 00:30:51:13 the Middle East and extended- 00:30:51:33 00:30:55:20 - Was that before the time of Alexander the Great, wasn't it? 00:30:55:20 00:30:57:32 - That was before the time of Alexander the Great. 00:30:57:52 00:30:59:32 Some people sometimes forget that. 00:30:59:52 00:31:01:24 And the Persians moved through 00:31:01:44 00:31:07:32 the Khyber Pass and through those mountains, several mile passes there, 00:31:07:52 00:31:11:36 but between Persia, the Bolan Pass, for example, 00:31:11:56 00:31:14:40 and they took over the northwest of India. 00:31:14:60 00:31:17:32 But after about 200 years, 00:31:17:52 00:31:19:64 they were assimilated. 00:31:20:32 00:31:23:32 Then- then- then- you mentioned Alexander the Great, 00:31:23:52 00:31:27:40 then Alexander the Great went conquering 00:31:27:24 00:31:31:44 through Egypt and the Near East and the Middle East. 00:31:31:64 00:31:34:28 And he went through the passes of these 00:31:34:48 00:31:41:60 highest mountains in the world into India, as you know, and was going on and on. 00:31:42:76 00:31:47:26 And he left there one of his great generals 00:31:47:22 00:31:50:40 to govern this part of the- of the- 00:31:50:60 00:31:53:28 of the empire of Alexander the Great. 00:31:53:48 00:31:57:36 And after two or three hundred years, the Greeks were assimilated. 00:31:57:56 00:31:59:52 Course, as you know, you've been there, 00:31:59:64 00:32:03:00 there are relics of the Greek culture and civilization today, 00:32:03:71 00:32:07:36 particularly in that synthesis of Buddhist and Greek art. 00:32:07:56 00:32:11:32 But actually, they were assimilated. 00:32:11:52 00:32:16:16 Then- then the Scythians came, 00:32:16:36 00:32:18:56 and they were assimilated. 00:32:18:76 00:32:24:36 And then people out of Asia, these people from 00:32:25:36 00:32:28:48 the Middle East and then some parts of- 00:32:28:68 00:32:32:60 other parts of Asia, a little to the- to the farther east, 00:32:32:80 00:32:36:28 they came over the mountains and through the mountains. 00:32:38:16 00:32:39:72 The Yuchi, did I say? 00:32:39:83 00:32:41:68 And then the White Huns. - Yes. 00:32:41:88 00:32:44:16 - And they were all assimilated into this 00:32:44:36 00:32:48:16 great Indo-Aryan, 00:32:48:64 00:32:50:52 Dravidian synthesis. Oh, by the way, 00:32:50:72 00:32:56:80 you know, the- the Aryans came into India through the passage, about 1500 B.C. 00:32:56:83 00:33:00:18 And they are the great people of northern India today. 00:33:00:38 00:33:04:16 And the southern Indians, as you know, are very different people. 00:33:04:36 00:33:10:60 But this common denominator, this great cultural synthesis, was very assimilated. 00:33:10:73 00:33:14:32 Now later, beginning with the 9th century, 00:33:14:32 00:33:16:62 an, you know, there was a great worldwide movement, 00:33:16:82 00:33:20:56 at least across the middle of the earth, the Islamic movement, 00:33:21:24 00:33:24:52 the dynamics of this new prophet 00:33:24:72 00:33:26:64 in Arabia, Mohammed. 00:33:26:84 00:33:32:96 And these camel drivers and horsemen went east and west. 00:33:32:96 00:33:36:12 They reached the Atlantic Ocean and went all across North Africa. 00:33:36:32 00:33:38:84 You know, that pushed up to the Pyrenees 00:33:39:40 00:33:44:56 and then they pushed down the east coast of Africa and the west coast of Africa. 00:33:44:76 00:33:49:80 And they went conquering and proselyting and winning. 00:33:49:28 00:33:53:32 A lot of it was by persuasion, not all by the sword. 00:33:53:32 00:33:56:71 And they- they took over the middle of the earth. 00:33:56:82 00:34:00:00 And they went way up into Central Asia. 00:34:00:20 00:34:02:76 And they went way down into, 00:34:02:96 00:34:04:76 way down into India. 00:34:04:96 00:34:09:20 Far as Delhi, and what's now Calcutta. 00:34:09:40 00:34:10:92 - They settled there. 00:34:11:12 00:34:17:24 - And they established a great- great empire there. 00:34:17:24 00:34:19:40 - What about their assimilation? 00:34:19:24 00:34:20:96 You mention all these other groups. 00:34:21:16 00:34:24:20 - Now you put your finger on it right away, Bill. 00:34:24:84 00:34:27:68 All the others were assimilated. 00:34:27:88 00:34:32:24 But here are a people of a fiercely monotheic religion. 00:34:32:44 00:34:34:32 You know, the Indian religion, 00:34:34:52 00:34:39:48 the great Hindu religion is really a confederation of religions. 00:34:39:68 00:34:48:80 You can be monistic, atheistic, pantheistic, polytheistic, and animistic, 00:34:48:28 00:34:53:72 and- in this great family of religions, called Hinduism. 00:34:53:92 00:35:00:64 Well, now the Islamic peoples, these Mughals out of Central Asia, 00:35:00:84 00:35:06:40 they, as distinguished from that diffusion, 00:35:06:60 00:35:09:00 is a great concentration. 00:35:09:20 00:35:13:24 Monotheistic, with no variations. 00:35:13:24 00:35:16:26 Of course they have their different sectors, you know, 00:35:16:46 00:35:18:28 like the Sufi and the, all the rest. 00:35:18:48 00:35:22:48 - Well what was the situation about 1947 00:35:22:24 00:35:25:80 in respect to the assimilation of- 00:35:25:28 00:35:29:12 of these two large groups, the Hindus and the Muslims. 00:35:29:32 00:35:32:20 - Well, you know as- well, let's start with 18- 00:35:32:40 00:35:34:40 now I won't go back 5000 years this time - 00:35:34:60 00:35:36:88 Let's go back just to 1885. - All right. 00:35:37:80 00:35:40:72 - In the city of Bombay, there started 00:35:40:92 00:35:43:28 a great movement 00:35:43:48 00:35:47:40 of the All India National Congress. 00:35:47:24 00:35:52:76 Not for liberation, not for independence, but for more autonomy, 00:35:52:96 00:35:58:24 more self-government, more recognition of the Indian people themselves. 00:35:58:44 00:36:04:88 For example, they put up a great demand that the examinations for the Indian civil 00:36:05:80 00:36:09:56 service should not be held in London, where they would be under great handicaps 00:36:09:76 00:36:14:00 of language and distance and money to get there, 00:36:14:20 00:36:20:12 but should be held in India where there are young men who are qualified, 00:36:20:32 00:36:23:60 could take the examination on a fairer basis. 00:36:23:60 00:36:26:68 That's just one illustration of this National Congress movement. 00:36:26:88 00:36:31:20 Well, the All India National Congress started out 00:36:31:40 00:36:34:40 in cooperation with the government of India, 00:36:34:24 00:36:39:32 and then instead of just asking for improvements and reform, 00:36:39:52 00:36:43:60 they began to more and more ask for independence. 00:36:43:80 00:36:45:42 - Of Great Britain. - Of Great Britain, 00:36:45:52 00:36:48:12 as a part of the British Commonwealth, however. 00:36:48:32 00:36:50:64 Well, at the same time, 00:36:50:84 00:36:55:60 a great Muslim leader founded Aligarh University, 00:36:55:80 00:37:01:32 because he found that his Muslim people, who were standing aloof from Western 00:37:01:52 00:37:05:28 culture and science and the study of English, were falling behind 00:37:05:35 00:37:07:61 in the civil service examinations, for example. 00:37:07:81 00:37:10:58 - As a manifestation of this lack of assimilation 00:37:10:25 00:37:12:16 that you talked about. - Lack of assimilation. 00:37:12:36 00:37:19:32 And so you had the formation on that basis as a counterweight to the All India 00:37:19:52 00:37:24:12 National Congress, an All India Muslim League. 00:37:24:32 00:37:26:72 So you had these two forces there, 00:37:26:92 00:37:30:52 Hindu and Muslim. Though the All India Muslim League, 00:37:30:72 00:37:34:36 I mean the All Indian National Congress, at least theoretically- 00:37:34:56 00:37:37:40 - Had Muslims - was- had Muslims, too. 00:37:37:24 00:37:41:88 But the great majority of Muslims went into the All India Muslim League. 00:37:42:80 00:37:45:40 - Two political movements. - Two political movements. 00:37:45:60 00:37:50:00 Now, is- is this great Islam, 00:37:50:20 00:37:51:96 I mean, this great 00:37:52:16 00:37:57:72 Hindu- Indo-Aryan Dravidian synthesis gonna assimilate both of 'em? 00:37:57:92 00:38:00:56 Or are they gonna diverge? 00:38:00:76 00:38:04:88 And an issue arose then as to whether 00:38:05:80 00:38:10:56 there could be enough provincial autonomy to take account of these cultural 00:38:10:76 00:38:15:28 differences and have a concentration in the central government on, say, 00:38:15:48 00:38:19:96 defense, foreign relations, communications, transportation, 00:38:20:16 00:38:23:40 and so forth, revenue. They would all be in the central 00:38:23:60 00:38:28:48 government with provincial autonomy in the British- 00:38:28:68 00:38:30:80 formerly British provincial states. 00:38:31:00 00:38:35:44 - This issue had come into focus just before 00:38:35:64 00:38:37:96 independence was granted by Great Britain. - That's right. 00:38:37:96 00:38:41:76 - This was an important question for the subcontinent of India at that time. 00:38:41:96 00:38:44:40 - Now if they could have worked out this cultural 00:38:44:24 00:38:52:40 autonomy and the all- overall Indian nationalism, so to speak, 00:38:52:41 00:38:54:16 you wouldn't have had the petition. 00:38:54:36 00:38:58:96 But when there was an insistence that the central government, 00:38:59:16 00:39:05:84 the, nationwide, so to speak, with less provincial cultural autonomy, 00:39:06:00 00:39:07:40 that's where the break came. 00:39:07:60 00:39:09:12 Now, there was a wise 00:39:09:32 00:39:13:60 Muslim who was in the All India National Congress movement 00:39:13:80 00:39:17:77 who took the position, and he was strongly pro-India, 00:39:17:97 00:39:23:72 pro-Nehru, pro-Gandhi, pro-All Indian National Congress, 00:39:23:92 00:39:25:52 but still a great Muslim. 00:39:25:72 00:39:29:80 He thought they could have stayed together if they'd had more recognition of 00:39:30:00 00:39:32:32 provincial and cultural autonomy 00:39:32:52 00:39:36:80 with the industrial revolution in time to take care of the centralization. 00:39:37:00 00:39:41:96 - But what we really had was, because of a lack of this assimilation, 00:39:42:16 00:39:45:12 we had a partition of the Indian subcontinent. 00:39:45:32 00:39:48:76 - Yes. - And as Margaret Bourke-White said, that 00:39:48:96 00:39:53:44 there was a rare event in the history of nations because twins were created. 00:39:53:64 00:39:55:32 India and Pakistan. - That's right. 00:39:55:52 00:39:59:68 - And they represented this lack of assimilation. 00:39:59:88 00:40:03:24 Then out of this partition, there developed 00:40:03:56 00:40:06:47 certain problems between these two nations. 00:40:06:47 00:40:09:14 - Yeah. - And one of the problems 00:40:09:34 00:40:10:56 was that of Kashmir. 00:40:10:66 00:40:12:16 - Yeah. - Well, you tell us about Kashmir. 00:40:12:36 00:40:16:88 - Well, you know, there's British India, 00:40:17:80 00:40:22:17 and there was Indian India, or princely India you might say. 00:40:22:37 00:40:26:80 Now British India was made up of 11 provinces, 00:40:26:28 00:40:32:96 seven of which were majority Hindu and four of which were majority Muslim. 00:40:33:16 00:40:36:56 Now, there wasn't any great difference or 00:40:36:76 00:40:41:72 probability of a war over that division because it just worked out smoothly. 00:40:41:92 00:40:47:40 Seven went to remain with India and the four went off to be Pakistan. 00:40:47:60 00:40:51:80 But where the rub came, Bill, as you well know, 00:40:51:28 00:40:55:12 I never saw anybody who studies a thing more thoroughly than you do, 00:40:55:23 00:40:58:40 in addition to the 11 British provinces, 00:40:58:51 00:41:02:96 there were 563 princely Indian states. 00:41:03:16 00:41:04:88 - The maharajahs. - Yeah. 00:41:05:80 00:41:10:80 Now they were they were not directly under parliament, for example. 00:41:10:28 00:41:12:40 They were under what's called paramountcy, 00:41:12:60 00:41:18:00 which- which was more loose in connection with- with Britain. 00:41:18:20 00:41:23:95 And the great problem arose here as to how would these 563 00:41:24:11 00:41:27:92 princely Indian states be allocated. 00:41:28:12 00:41:30:96 And the principle was that 00:41:31:16 00:41:36:28 whatever the prince says - so the divine right - he would make the decision. 00:41:36:48 00:41:38:56 But there was also another principle, 00:41:38:76 00:41:43:68 at least announced, that in case of a difference of opinion, 00:41:43:88 00:41:49:20 of majority sentiment between the prince and the people, 00:41:49:40 00:41:53:71 it would be subject to the will of the people, 00:41:53:20 00:41:56:00 rather, that is permanently. 00:41:56:20 00:41:57:84 The temporary accession of the prince 00:41:58:42 00:41:59:75 would be subject to the will of the people. 00:41:59:95 00:42:01:68 - [crosstalk] Violent removal by the people. 00:42:01:88 00:42:03:60 - Well, [crosstalk, inaudible] 00:42:03:80 00:42:08:72 560 of these states and, 00:42:09:40 00:42:10:64 it was a wonderful job done there 00:42:10:84 00:42:16:68 by the Indian administration and the Pakistan government too. 00:42:16:88 00:42:23:20 Five hundred and sixty of these 563 princely states 00:42:23:40 00:42:25:92 went mainly with India. 00:42:26:12 00:42:29:16 That was their cultural affinity. 00:42:29:36 00:42:31:84 The dispute arose over three. 00:42:32:40 00:42:36:20 Just think out- out of 563, arose over three. 00:42:36:40 00:42:40:44 And that was the state of Hyderabad, the largest state in India; 00:42:40:64 00:42:43:36 Junagadh; and Kashmir. 00:42:43:56 00:42:47:44 Now, the ruler of Hyderabad was a Muslim. 00:42:47:64 00:42:51:32 The overwhelming majority of his people were Hindus. 00:42:51:52 00:42:55:96 And the Nizam they called him, 00:42:56:16 00:42:58:64 princely ruler of Hyderabad, 00:42:58:84 00:43:04:30 didn't want to accede completely to India. He wanted to retain a lot 00:43:04:50 00:43:07:66 of authority within his state. But we'll skip that. 00:43:07:86 00:43:09:56 I won't go into the merits. -Yes. 00:43:09:76 00:43:11:28 We really don't have all the time we'd like to have. 00:43:11:48 00:43:13:84 - [crosstalk] But anyway, he ended up in India. 00:43:13:84 00:43:15:28 - We need to have the fifty minutes 00:43:15:28 00:43:17:35 like in your classroom in history at the university 00:43:17:55 00:43:20:72 many years ago. - Hyderabad ended up in India. 00:43:20:92 00:43:26:80 Junagadh had a Muslim prince and he acceded to Pakistan. 00:43:26:21 00:43:27:96 But his people were overwhelmingly 00:43:28:16 00:43:32:80 in favor of India and they had a plebiscite and they voted to go to India. 00:43:33:00 00:43:34:52 So Junagadh went to India. 00:43:34:72 00:43:37:00 Now that leaves Kashmir. 00:43:37:20 00:43:39:92 The maharajah was Hindu. 00:43:40:12 00:43:42:84 Seventy percent of the people were Muslim. 00:43:42:84 00:43:45:54 But the maharajah had a right to make the accession. 00:43:45:74 00:43:48:32 - About four million people in Kashmir I believe. 00:43:48:52 00:43:51:24 - About four million two hundred thousand. - At that time I guess. 00:43:51:44 00:43:54:88 - And- oh both of these people are great people, 00:43:55:80 00:43:59:40 the Pakistanis and Indians. You and I both we're in love with both 00:43:59:24 00:44:02:16 of the people. And such a tragedy that this 00:44:02:36 00:44:04:96 great chasm has developed and that we can't 00:44:05:16 00:44:09:96 work out some basis where they can get together and cooperate. 00:44:09:96 00:44:12:88 The petition's there. That's done. That's history. 00:44:13:80 00:44:14:56 Now that it's done, 00:44:14:76 00:44:18:72 instead of being in opposition camps with all its hazards 00:44:18:92 00:44:23:32 for the world, they should at least be- have a basis of cooperation. 00:44:23:52 00:44:27:16 And if they could work out Kashmir, I think they could find it. 00:44:27:36 00:44:32:72 And the United Nations plan was Sceasefire, truce, plebiscite. 00:44:32:92 00:44:36:80 And they haven't ever yet been able to work out either 00:44:37:00 00:44:40:16 the five member nation commission; 00:44:40:36 00:44:44:60 General MacNaughton; or Sir Owen Dixon; or Ambassador Jarring, 00:44:44:80 00:44:48:16 a very wise man from Sweden. He tried it, too. 00:44:48:36 00:44:51:76 And I have tried it, you know, you were with me. 00:44:51:96 00:44:53:84 And since you came back, 00:44:54:40 00:44:58:56 I've tried it several more times and I wish I could talk 00:44:58:76 00:45:02:56 about the inner situation now but since it's on the agenda 00:45:02:75 00:45:05:20 of the United Nations, and is a current problem, 00:45:05:40 00:45:09:00 I'm not permitted under U.N. regulations to talk about it. 00:45:09:20 00:45:10:56 - I think you 00:45:10:76 00:45:16:80 could point out though very well that part of Kashmir today is occupied by India. 00:45:16:80 00:45:18:60 - Yeah. - And part of it is occupied by Pakistan. 00:45:18:80 00:45:19:74 - That's right. 00:45:19:94 00:45:22:44 - And that what is preventing a plebiscite, 00:45:22:64 00:45:28:19 or a vote of the people, is the presence on Pak- on Kashmir soil of 00:45:28:39 00:45:31:90 troops on one side in the southern part by the Indians- 00:45:32:43 00:45:35:76 - Western part. Yeah. On the- on the eastern side. 00:45:35:96 00:45:38:40 - and Pakistani troops on the western side. 00:45:38:48 00:45:40:24 On the western side. - Yeah. 00:45:40:44 00:45:43:28 - And that's the- that's the crux of the difficulty. 00:45:43:48 00:45:45:24 That is, the presence of these 00:45:45:44 00:45:50:80 two countries in dispute over who is entitled to Kashmir. 00:45:50:28 00:45:54:60 - And what shall be the principles of withdrawal. 00:45:54:80 00:46:00:12 You know the resolutions provide that all Pakistan troops get out. 00:46:00:32 00:46:02:40 It also provides that all Indian troops 00:46:02:60 00:46:07:12 should get out except those required for defense. 00:46:07:32 00:46:09:52 And it also provides, on the western side, 00:46:09:72 00:46:13:12 what we call the Pakistan side, with all of the Pakistan troops out, 00:46:13:32 00:46:19:48 there'll be local forces there of native Kashmiris, organized to preserve law 00:46:19:68 00:46:28:20 and order, too, with a small Indian army on the other side, with also local forces 00:46:28:56 00:46:30:72 to help preserve law and order, too. 00:46:30:92 00:46:35:28 And it doesn't say that the- 00:46:35:48 00:46:37:80 Pakistan just gets out, period. 00:46:38:00 00:46:39:96 It says Pakistan gets out, 00:46:40:16 00:46:42:12 and when Pakistan begins to get out, 00:46:42:32 00:46:46:56 India also begins to get out down to a minimum point. 00:46:46:76 00:46:52:40 And you never can get 'em to agree how many Indian troops shall be left. 00:46:52:60 00:46:54:96 Pakistan said India wants too many, 00:46:55:16 00:46:59:32 India says that we don't suggest enough. 00:46:59:52 00:47:03:40 And that's where we are now. - Let me ask you another question. 00:47:03:60 00:47:06:40 It appears to me that during the past 10 years, 00:47:06:48 00:47:12:16 except for the Kashmir problem, that many of the differences between these 00:47:12:18 00:47:14:28 two important countries have been resolved. 00:47:14:48 00:47:16:44 There have been agreements about water, but- 00:47:16:64 00:47:19:33 - That was a very crucial case, too. 00:47:19:53 00:47:24:40 Mr. Eugene Black of the World Bank, did a wonderful job there 00:47:24:24 00:47:29:80 and worked out a program where over a billion dollars, I recall, 00:47:29:80 00:47:32:16 is used for the development of those waters for both countries. 00:47:32:36 00:47:34:56 And that's a marvelous thing. 00:47:34:76 00:47:37:56 And we were hoping that would 00:47:37:59 00:47:39:64 help to facilitate the settlement of the Kashmir. 00:47:39:69 00:47:41:84 - But there are a lot of emotions in this Kashmir- 00:47:42:40 00:47:43:64 - You put your finger on it. 00:47:43:84 00:47:46:76 The emotion is over Kashmir. 00:47:46:96 00:47:50:52 It's packed with emotion, sentiment, psychological, 00:47:50:66 00:47:51:84 religious, economic, 00:47:52:40 00:47:58:68 social, prestige, faiths, sentiment, ties, all packed. 00:47:58:88 00:48:02:68 - Practically all the complications that could grow out of disagreements 00:48:02:88 00:48:06:68 between any two individuals as well as- as two countries. 00:48:07:24 00:48:12:44 At the present time, I understand you are on call, 00:48:12:64 00:48:17:24 standing by and prepared to make a summary report 00:48:17:44 00:48:19:10 to the United Nations. Is that the situation? 00:48:19:30 00:48:21:28 - If they ask me to. - If they ask you to, 00:48:21:48 00:48:23:60 you are prepared to do that. 00:48:23:80 00:48:26:76 - It doesn't seem that the Security Council, 00:48:26:96 00:48:31:96 the great powers, have been so eager to have this case come up 00:48:32:28 00:48:35:88 for reasons of their own, which I'm sure are valid reasons. 00:48:36:80 00:48:38:80 But this case won't just disappear. 00:48:39:00 00:48:41:80 It can't be brushed under the rug. 00:48:41:28 00:48:44:56 You can't turn your face away from it and forget it. 00:48:44:76 00:48:47:40 It's there and it's deep. 00:48:47:24 00:48:49:24 And in my view, 00:48:49:44 00:48:56:56 the United Nations has a responsibility to continue its efforts to work out 00:48:56:76 00:48:59:62 a basis for the settlement of this dispute. 00:48:59:78 00:49:02:88 - I recall when you went over in 1951 00:49:03:80 00:49:05:12 that tension was very high 00:49:05:32 00:49:10:00 and that after your visit that the tension seemed to lessen 00:49:10:20 00:49:14:58 bit by bit. And I think that the confidence that these- 00:49:14:68 00:49:18:91 representatives of these two countries have in you now and have had in you for 00:49:19:12 00:49:23:68 the last 10 years has made a contribution which cannot be measured, 00:49:23:88 00:49:26:96 and it may be years before it can be fully evaluated. 00:49:27:16 00:49:30:28 But you certainly have stuck by a very tough job.