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Floyd Macon "Chuck" Simmons is our guest

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in the Howell [?] research room
of the Robinson-Spangler Carolina Room

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in the public library
of Charlotte and Mecklenburg County.

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Today is Thursday, August 17th, 2006.

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Mr. Simmons is a very unique and successful

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individual in a wide variety of areas
often associated with each other.

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He has excelled in sports, art,

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motion picture and television,
as well as a long career in photography.

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Many of our viewers know you as a two-time

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Olympian and have been in feature
films and on television.

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Possibly the first question that our
viewers would like to know

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of a more personal nature
is how you got your nickname.

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Could you tell us a little bit
how you got the nickname Chunk?

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No. [Laughter]

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Yes, I can tell you finally,
after all these years.

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I used to have problems with that

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because my mother gave me that nickname

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and I had a little story that goes with it.

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When someone would say,
how did you get the name Chunk?

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I said, oh, you know, my mother called me
because I was a little chunky baby,

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which was true.

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But it was more than that.

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She called me her a little chunk of love.

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That's very endearing. Very endearing,

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and I wouldn't dare let my high school
class know that or anybody else.

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Oh I can do it now.

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But I went to a party some years ago and

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got there a little early

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and I'm sitting up at the counter there,
the bar, the makeshift bar,

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and, uh,

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lots of people come in.
"Everything's okay, Chunk?"

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You know "Everything's okay?"

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This guy was getting a little tipsy
and he finally said,

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"That's a hell of a name.

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How'd you get a name like that?"

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I said, Oh, boy, here we go.

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And I - he kept -
I said, "It's just a kid name."

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He said, "No kidding."

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He said, "Well, how did you
get a name like that?"

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I said, "You really want to know?"

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He says, "Yeah, I'm asking you."

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I said, "My mother,
my dearly departed mother, mother

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called me.
Her little chunk of love.

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Got anything to say about that?"

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He goes "No, that's a good name."

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And I said it in a more threatening way.

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I said, "Chunk of love,
you've got anything to say about that?"

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And that's what he said.

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So then I knew I passed -

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I could say that and get over it.

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But I was so self-conscious about

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my mother giving me the name calling
me the chunk of love,

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which is a little bit sappy but,
romantic or whatever - endearing.

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And it really kind of fits
in with the relationship that you have

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with your family. Could you tell us
a little bit about your family? When you

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were born, where you were born,
and your siblings and parents?

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Well, I was born in Charlotte,
North Carolina, Mecklenburg County,

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St. Peters Hospital, which is right
up the street over there.

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And, uh, it was an uneventful time,
three o'clock in the morning.

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And

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that's about all I know about that,

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other than, you know, my dad was,
uh, I was the only boy,

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and he was very pleased with having
this little boy, never

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realizing that someday I was gonna grow up,

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hoping that I would somehow.

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But so he had his son and,
uh, mother had her daughters.

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So it worked that way.

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I was the crown prince I suppose.
I was very lucky to have a father like I had.

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He didn't spoil me.
He - he was

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a very caring father and a very deliberate

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fall and very interesting -
hunting, fishing,

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good stories

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were read to me out of the classics.

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More - more of the novels
rather than classics.

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But I didn't, I couldn't read very well -

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still can't -

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and I wasn't a good student,

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and that was disappointing for him.

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And there was some thought about
maybe I wasn't quite bright,

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but he knew better,

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and my family knew better,

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and the teachers knew better.

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It was just my classmates didn't.

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You know thought I was kind of

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off the wall,

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not quite too bright.
But then I could gain force again,

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when recess bell would ring. I'd
go out and I'd participate in the games

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and even create games, follow
me and that sort of thing.

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So I think I was a popular kid

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and then art, which was an interest even
then, kept me alive with my classmates -

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kept me alive socially.

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You know, where I failed as a student,

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didn't know the answers,
didn't care about the answers.

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But I'd go home and read books
far more extensive than I got in class.

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And once again, my family and my father

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go on trips and talk
about things that I knew.

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But I just had no - I never have understood

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why I didn't have that desire to apply
myself in school, but I never did.

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I was always looking
out the wonder- window,

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I was always dreaming,

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a little - little bit of a dreamer.

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Still am.

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What kind of relationship did you
have with your older sisters?

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Did they spoil you?

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One did terribly.

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The other was just, Betty.

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She died recently, by the way,
at ninety years of age.

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Suzanne died at 34,

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and she was the one that

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I'd sort of model myself after.

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And when she was go off to school
and come back, you know, Suzanne,

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she was - not to ignore Betty -

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she was charming and funny
and delightful and kind of -

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what do they call them today,
teeny bopper?

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No, she was a,

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she was a Betty Boop type, you know.
What did they call it?

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A flapper.

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A flapper.

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Do you know that expression?
I do.

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Yeah.
OK.

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So she was very involved in fashion
and what was popular at the time,

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and the way she looked - and dancing

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and being spit curls and - being forward
in her thinking, yeah, the way she talked.

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And Suzanne was more intellectual and
just a lot of lot of

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more contact with her.

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But I loved them both.

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Of course. Well it sounds like you all had
very different childhood experiences.

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I know that your dad was extremely

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interested in sports,
even though he had a construction company

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and also worked as president and
treasurer of a concrete company.

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Can you tell me a little bit about your
father's influence in the life of sports?

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Well, he was an athlete to start with.

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He thought of himself as an athlete.

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Interesting that he should
have a son like me.

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He revelled in my sports when I started
succeeding as a, as a high schooler.

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And it would seem that he would be,
you know, kind of

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too involved with my life.

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And people thought that he was pushing me.
Never pushed me for a moment.

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He just told me the advantages of sports
and how it's the accomplishment of it

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and the

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team - team play through life supposedly.

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Your mother was
from the Alexander family.

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And for those people that are

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from Mecklenburg County,
they might be interested to know

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that because they're one of the most
prolific families that have ever populated

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Mecklenburg County. Really. Can you
tell us a little bit about your mom?

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She was always considered a beauty.
You know,

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they did that.

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And how

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elegant she was, how tall -
she was about five two.

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But they always said tall and willowy

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Eleanor Alexander.

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She wasn't that at all.
But she had that - thought of that.

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Do you remember the Gibson girls?

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They were referred to as a Gibson girl.

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She was,

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I think well-liked,

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very popular.

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Very funny.

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Something that my father wasn't.

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So they were and how they
stayed together for 65 years.

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But they did.

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Well, opposites often attract.

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Yeah.

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Well, your mother was very, um -
Not as - non-athletic.

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Yes.
She said she was a high jumper,

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but gave it up when she was
fifteen or something like that.

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Couldn't get the skirts
over the bar or something.

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I'm sure women's fashion back then
didn't help any athletic endeavor.

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No.

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Your mother must have been influential

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in your life, however, to allow you
to participate in so many sports, be gone

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at meets and miss a lot of family life
in order to achieve your sports dreams.

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Yeah. Is she very
supportive of your career?

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Well, she didn't understand sports.
She really didn't.

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Or, she cared about me being in sports
and hearing people talking about me

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in high school, doing the things and
on the football field.

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She never even saw one game. The one
game she - we prevailed upon her to see,

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I got knocked out in the first quarter
of the game.

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Completely knocked out.
That was it.

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She left the stadium and never came back.

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I'm sure it's very hard for a mother

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that doesn't love sports
to see her son knocked out at a

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football game. Yeah, well anyone.

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But someone - someone she'd tell - used
to tell the story on herself and,

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well, I guess not tell it on herself -

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it was told about her.

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They'd say, "Well now, what does Chunk do

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in sports?"

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She says, "Well, honey,
I don't really know.

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He runs, he jumps, and he
throws things, and he swims."

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So she says, "I don't know what" - something
of referring to the decathlon.

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She sounds like a pretty
typical housewife of her time,

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not the soccer moms that are around today
that no - No she was a Blanche DuBois,

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she was a

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Streetcar Named Desire.

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She was lived in a kind
of a fantasy world.

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She really did.
She was, you said, a housewife.

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She couldn't cook anything.

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Didn't want to cook anything.

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But she could sew and do that crochet.

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She did all those things that she
was trained to do as a girl,

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but,

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and it wasn't that she
was snooty about cooking.

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She just didn't have any desire to cook.

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And there was -
there's always someone there to

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cook for us.

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Was she educated in Mecklenburg County?

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Well, you had you had a hesitation there.

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That would have been apropos.
You said -

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was she educated in Mecklenburg County?
You know, pause.

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I don't know that she was that educated,
but she was well read and had good

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schooling and went to Queen Chicora
later was Queen's College.

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Well, many girls were sent off to get

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education in other places,
or they may have had private tutors come

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to their home because women were not
educated always in the same manner that

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men were educated.
So I didn't know if she spent -

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oh, I see what you're saying - her career
here - no - getting her education -

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that really didn't enter the equation
with her life and or her friends.

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You grew up in a very special neighborhood

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for those people that are
from Mecklenburg County

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they're gonna be familiar with the term

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Myers Park and many people might
know the name Hermitage Court.

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Right.
Could you talk a little bit about your

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dad's involvement in helping
developing your neighborhood?

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Oh, well, we, uh, my home
I grew up in Dilworth really

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cause he built between, uh, Park Road and
and, uh, Dilworth Road, uh, right there

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the street car turned on East Boulevard
and made this loop and came back.

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And that was where he built four homes,
a rather impressive land.

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There's only one, uh, the only one, the
one we lived in is still there, survived.

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The others are office
buildings or been torn down.

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So I knew a lot about
Dilworth growing up there as a child.

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Myers Park was some other place.

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But then I heard stories later.

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And then during the war we, well before
that, we lived over on Roswell Avenue,

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which is now a big, uh,
condominium complex there on that corner.

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Gone with the wind,

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all these places.

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What was the question about, uh,

00:15:06:40 00:15:11:00
Myers Park? If you could describe a little
bit about your father helping to develop..?

00:15:11:16 00:15:12:36
Oh! Hermitage Court?
Yeah.

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Some of the neighbors maybe that you knew.
Right.

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Well, he, he certainly did that,

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but I never knew, uh,
the house that we were down on the corner,

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the so-called down on the corner,
the big antebellum house

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was even their house that he built it and
lived there before me, before I was born.

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So, you know, that's funny,

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later, he talked about things
that he didn't talk about.

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Then he didn't see the significance in it.

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You know, a lot of older people do that.

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They - they don't see the significance in
it at the time

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and then later they're able to -
yeah,

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that's right,
I did that.

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So he was not that, uh, involved with it.
So I did this,

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I'm proud. He never did that.

00:16:02:84 00:16:04:88
He did that later.
A little.

00:16:04:94 00:16:09:52
Not even then.
He wasn't, he wasn't boasting about it.

00:16:10:32 00:16:13:28
I'm sure.
As neighborhoods have developed in

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Charlotte,
Myers Park has taken on an even more

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important historic significance that he
wouldn't have seen at the time

00:16:21:88 00:16:24:96
when Myers Park was pretty
much the end of Charlotte.

00:16:25:16 00:16:25:88
Yeah.

00:16:26:80 00:16:32:24
It was really then Eastover, which then
was kind of the upshot of Myers Park.

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You know.

00:16:34:80 00:16:39:76
You remember any of the neighbors?
You lived at 522 Hermitage Court?

00:16:39:96 00:16:46:48
Well, not - not as much as
I should have, but I wasn't around then.

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I was, uh,
off in the service, off in school,

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when it came back and then off travelling
about with the Olympic program.

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But I knew some, of course,

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but not like I should have really.

00:17:11:44 00:17:12:84
Can you tell us a little bit about your

00:17:13:40 00:17:19:40
education, you explained about your
lack of interest in the regular academic

00:17:19:24 00:17:23:80
courses, but that you excelled
in art and also in sports? Yeah.

00:17:23:28 00:17:28:24
Were there any favorite classmates
that you had or any favorite teachers

00:17:28:44 00:17:29:52
that you had?

00:17:29:72 00:17:35:80
Well, I remember some teachers in the
third grade over here at Dilworth School.

00:17:35:36 00:17:38:00
I was there for three years,

00:17:38:20 00:17:44:40
which I'm going to - in fact,
the other day I was talking to Jim Babb

00:17:44:60 00:17:51:80
and his wife, uh,
has something to do with the

00:17:51:88 00:17:55:00
promotion or, not promotion,
the historical thing.

00:17:55:20 00:17:57:80
It's historical now
that they've added onto.

00:17:58:00 00:18:01:80
It's quite a - quite a structure there.

00:18:02:00 00:18:05:44
And I'm saying, you know,
someone ought to put a movement on the way

00:18:05:64 00:18:10:12
to get as many, oh, Dilworth kids back as
they possibly could.

00:18:10:32 00:18:16:40
And it'd be a great picture in front of
that wonderful edifice there, the building.

00:18:16:60 00:18:19:24
It was a very humble
building for a long time.

00:18:19:44 00:18:24:96
Then they built the,
the addition, new modern addition down.

00:18:25:16 00:18:28:61
That was Dilworth school.

00:18:28:76 00:18:34:44
The rest was just a place to put supplies,
keep supplies.

00:18:34:64 00:18:39:56
But now it's, uh,
they're using it and they are going to,

00:18:39:76 00:18:46:48
uh, it's, it's a major,
major North Carolina

00:18:46:68 00:18:52:31
school from historical value
and from the value of being

00:18:52:51 00:18:58:56
what it is now to what it was then. It's
such a vast improvement.

00:18:58:76 00:19:05:40
And so I thought it'd be great
for someone get that movement had so that

00:19:05:24 00:19:08:72
bring back the students there and see
who's who and who went there

00:19:08:92 00:19:14:68
and who the teachers were and reminisce
and put some stuff together.

00:19:14:72 00:19:16:20
Well, if you think that's
a pretty good idea.

00:19:16:20 00:19:17:56
Sure.
If you decide to do that,

00:19:17:76 00:19:20:56
maybe the Carolina Room
staff can help you organize -

00:19:20:56 00:19:21:40
there you go -

00:19:21:24 00:19:24:00
some information about
the school and maybe some of it -

00:19:24:20 00:19:25:96
yeah, do you have information on -

00:19:26:60 00:19:27:48
we sure do do
Dilworth school?

00:19:27:68 00:19:32:72
We sure do.
Ursula Blankenship was, uh, austere,

00:19:32:92 00:19:36:60
uh, principal who didn't seem -

00:19:36:80 00:19:38:92
I mean, doesn't seem that way now that she

00:19:39:12 00:19:43:92
was austere, but, uh, she was
and she's a nice person.

00:19:44:12 00:19:48:80
I've met her many times
after grammar school.

00:19:56:32 00:19:58:24
What are your favorite things in school?

00:19:58:44 00:20:02:48
Obviously with sports and it
was it just - well they were very limited.

00:20:02:60 00:20:04:20
We didn't have organized sports.

00:20:04:40 00:20:08:20
Would go out on that playground
that is still there and line up,

00:20:09:84 00:20:13:32
and the teacher
that had that hour for playground

00:20:13:52 00:20:17:32
activities and they would just make up
games, dodgeball,

00:20:17:52 00:20:23:32
running foot races, run around and
around the field or do a sprint.

00:20:23:52 00:20:27:68
And I always tell the story and
till I got shot down about it.

00:20:28:56 00:20:31:56
I said, this is what,
what did you do?

00:20:31:56 00:20:32:96
Is that where you first started running?

00:20:33:16 00:20:34:72
And I said, Well, yeah, I did.

00:20:34:92 00:20:37:32
I guess it was.
And so how did you do?

00:20:37:52 00:20:42:40
And I said, well, I'll have to share
the honors with my little buddy,

00:20:42:60 00:20:46:68
Otis Brandon, we always won the
100 yard dash.

00:20:47:52 00:20:52:20
But the only thing was little
Gloria Watkins used to beat both of us.

00:20:52:96 00:20:55:24
And that got a laugh.

00:20:55:44 00:20:57:84
But then I had, had an Olympic thing,

00:20:58:40 00:20:59:92
I was telling that story,

00:21:00:12 00:21:04:96
and this champion swimmer from Asheville,

00:21:05:28 00:21:06:60
can't think of her name.

00:21:06:80 00:21:08:16
She was a

00:21:09:00 00:21:13:20
three or four time gold medalist
and sort of a feminist.

00:21:15:12 00:21:19:24
And I told the story and everyone laughed
about how

00:21:19:44 00:21:20:68
Gloria Watkins.

00:21:20:88 00:21:25:84
And she said, well, what's wrong
with a little girl beating you?

00:21:26:40 00:21:28:44
I said, What?
What do you mean

00:21:28:64 00:21:32:24
what's wrong?
Everything was wrong, you know.

00:21:32:44 00:21:36:24
Two little boys beaten by a girl
of which did not happen.

00:21:36:44 00:21:38:72
I tell the story to make a joke of it.

00:21:38:92 00:21:44:40
I didn't tell her that at that moment,
but she said.

00:21:44:24 00:21:49:96
Then I realized her name was
Hogsett or something like that.

00:21:50:14 00:21:51:24
She's a great swimmer,

00:21:51:44 00:21:55:00
big tall girl, but definitely a feminist

00:21:55:20 00:21:59:40
and, you know, little girls
didn't do things like that then.

00:21:59:60 00:22:02:20
And nor did Gloria Watkins do it really.

00:22:02:40 00:22:06:12
But I just invented Gloria for doing that.

00:22:06:12 00:22:09:52
Well, you certainly made up for it
in your high school and college career.

00:22:09:63 00:22:11:68
Well, not only did you excel in football,

00:22:11:88 00:22:14:92
but you loved other sports
and did well in them, too.

00:22:14:92 00:22:16:24
Could you tell our audience a little bit

00:22:16:44 00:22:19:96
about the different sports
that you participated in?

00:22:20:32 00:22:21:56
Oh god it start -

00:22:21:76 00:22:27:84
started so early and just
glorious games that every neighborhood

00:22:28:40 00:22:30:28
kids participated in.

00:22:30:48 00:22:35:68
You know, run down the alleyways and jump
across to the next alley way

00:22:35:88 00:22:42:84
and go on rooftops and, and garages and
go for blocks without hitting the ground

00:22:43:40 00:22:47:24
you know,
those games and when it'd rain run out

00:22:47:44 00:22:52:40
in the street and jump across
the mud and that kind of stuff.

00:22:52:60 00:22:56:80
And no no organized sports at all.
But by the time you got

00:22:57:00 00:23:01:80
to Central High School, you were very
interested in football particularly.

00:23:02:00 00:23:04:56
Yeah, I was.

00:23:04:76 00:23:09:76
Can you tell about the positions that you
played and the games that may have been

00:23:09:96 00:23:12:64
a special interest to you,
whether you won or lost?

00:23:12:64 00:23:14:12
Well, I wanted to be like my dad,

00:23:14:32 00:23:16:68
I wanted to be a quarterback.

00:23:16:88 00:23:20:40
You know, a guy that ran the team.

00:23:20:24 00:23:25:68
I didn't want to run the team, but I
wanted to be the runner in the backfield.

00:23:25:88 00:23:28:64
But I'd had an experience before that,

00:23:28:84 00:23:30:44
after A. G. -

00:23:30:64 00:23:31:84
No, sorry -

00:23:32:40 00:23:35:84
after Dilworth School

00:23:36:32 00:23:37:60
I -

00:23:37:80 00:23:39:28
they sent me off to school,

00:23:39:48 00:23:45:96
Blue Ridge School for Boys up and,
up in the mountains, Hendersonville.

00:23:46:16 00:23:52:80
And it was a prep school
and they didn't have little boy teams,

00:23:52:28 00:23:56:40
but the coach asked me to come
out for the varsity team.

00:23:56:24 00:23:59:76
And I was a little guy about 13 or 14.

00:23:59:96 00:24:02:76
And there were these
big 18 year olds there.

00:24:02:96 00:24:07:00
Needless to say, I didn't play much
football, but I learned a lot.

00:24:07:20 00:24:13:16
And when I came to Central, then I had
a chance to play on the varsity for real.

00:24:13:36 00:24:19:60
And I had already put in my - had
my baptism of fire, I suppose.

00:24:19:80 00:24:22:12
And we had a great coach

00:24:22:32 00:24:23:92
and a

00:24:24:12 00:24:27:76
bunch of boys that I
knew when I was a kid.

00:24:27:96 00:24:33:40
But I had to be, become reacquainted
with them later and they remembered me.

00:24:33:70 00:24:35:12
So, you know, the kids life three or four

00:24:35:32 00:24:40:20
or five years, you have grown so
much they changed and everything.

00:24:43:44 00:24:48:88
So then I knew I wanted to play baseball
because that was my, my love of life,

00:24:49:80 00:24:52:48
and as a kid.

00:24:53:16 00:24:55:96
But baseball came in the spring,

00:24:56:16 00:24:59:16
and that conflicted with track and field,

00:24:59:36 00:25:03:92
and I love to run and jump
and throw things, if you will.

00:25:04:12 00:25:10:12
So I started - my interest started or peaked
by the team and the coach and I went out

00:25:10:32 00:25:16:68
for the track team and did very well
my freshman year and encouraged to go on.

00:25:16:88 00:25:20:80
And of course, there were other
kids are doing equally as well.

00:25:20:28 00:25:28:24
But not the format wasn't as extensive as
what it was to become for me,

00:25:28:44 00:25:33:64
you know, with
college and going on to the Olympic Games

00:25:33:84 00:25:41:56
and, and trips with the AAU which was
the Amateur Athletic Association.

00:25:49:40 00:25:54:28
When you graduated from Central,
did you go immediately to Chapel Hill?

00:25:54:48 00:25:55:72
No, I didn't.

00:25:55:92 00:25:59:16
I went into, uh,

00:25:59:36 00:26:04:68
to a prep school up in Virginia
called Stanton Military Academy.

00:26:04:88 00:26:07:88
And it - had a scholarship there

00:26:08:80 00:26:12:96
and it was too good to turn down and the
service was going to pick me up soon.

00:26:13:16 00:26:17:56
I didn't know - excuse me -
whether I was going to finish

00:26:18:84 00:26:21:36
school before I had to go in the service.

00:26:21:56 00:26:24:12
So I went on up to Stanton

00:26:24:32 00:26:31:80
as a postgraduate and stayed there
until they called me into the service,

00:26:31:28 00:26:32:64
which I did and didn't.

00:26:32:84 00:26:34:96
I didn't favor it that way.

00:26:35:16 00:26:37:56
But once again, my father said, wisely,

00:26:37:76 00:26:40:68
so he said that's the best thing to do.

00:26:40:88 00:26:42:96
Uncle Sam knows where you will be

00:26:43:16 00:26:45:96
and the war is gonna last long
enough for you to get in it,

00:26:46:16 00:26:48:80
so don't be concerned about that.

00:26:49:00 00:26:51:36
And so I went to Stanton Military Academy

00:26:51:56 00:26:56:28
and then sort of got my track and field -
and football -

00:26:56:48 00:27:00:48
but track and field in particular
kind of honed in a direction

00:27:00:68 00:27:02:56
and I knew about the decathlon then and

00:27:02:76 00:27:03:96
knew that was -

00:27:03:99 00:27:07:40
if there was ever another Olympic Games,
I'd like to go to it.

00:27:07:24 00:27:12:12
So that started forming things
in my mind about athletics -

00:27:12:32 00:27:14:28
I mean, track athletics.

00:27:14:48 00:27:17:00
Did your coach help you catch that dream

00:27:17:20 00:27:22:60
or did you meet another Olympian or what
made you decide this would be your dream?

00:27:22:80 00:27:33:72
Yeah, it was newsreels, reading the paper
about Jesse Owens, Owens and, uh,

00:27:33:92 00:27:36:16
oh a number of - Glenn,

00:27:36:36 00:27:39:00
Glenn Morris, who became my idol.

00:27:39:20 00:27:41:40
I became his idol.
Oh, wait a minute.

00:27:41:60 00:27:44:96
That's all wrong.
He became my idol

00:27:45:36 00:27:49:00
and sort of a role model.

00:27:57:60 00:27:59:64
When you finished military school,

00:27:59:64 00:28:02:36
you made another decision
that impacted the rest of your life.

00:28:02:56 00:28:06:40
Will you tell us what you
did when you left Virginia?

00:28:06:96 00:28:10:76
You mean Stanton Military Academy?
Yes. Ah.

00:28:10:96 00:28:14:76
Well, I came back
to Charlotte for the summer

00:28:14:96 00:28:20:40
and got through the summer
and then that fall

00:28:20:24 00:28:23:76
I was drafted into the army

00:28:23:96 00:28:28:52
and I wanted to get
into the 10th Mountain Division.

00:28:28:72 00:28:30:40
That was my desire

00:28:30:60 00:28:32:64
and I thought it'd be no problem.

00:28:32:64 00:28:34:76
You know, get me in the army.
I'm in the army,

00:28:34:96 00:28:41:00
and I can volunteer for the 10th Mountain.
Went down to Camp Croft, South Carolina.

00:28:41:64 00:28:46:48
I learned my first thing that I knew about

00:28:46:68 00:28:50:52
leadership and - don't
volunteer for anything.

00:28:50:72 00:28:52:60
And that's the first thing I did.

00:28:52:80 00:28:54:84
They had a bus down near the
old Selwyn Hotel

00:28:55:40 00:29:00:00
and with thirty nine North Carolinians -
they were from this area -

00:29:00:20 00:29:03:60
being inducted into the service.

00:29:03:80 00:29:09:88
And the guy with the clipboard says, has
anyone here had any military training?

00:29:10:80 00:29:13:28
And I said, Yes, sir, I have. And I said
oh God.

00:29:13:48 00:29:15:56
He says, well, you are in charge.

00:29:15:57 00:29:17:32
And they put a little band on my arm, and

00:29:17:52 00:29:20:12
I was a lance corporal.
Lance corporal.

00:29:20:26 00:29:22:76
Good gosh,
I'm - promoting me already.

00:29:22:96 00:29:25:12
My dad would be proud of me.

00:29:25:32 00:29:30:80
Well, it was just to get the group
down to Camp Croft, South Carolina.

00:29:31:44 00:29:32:84
And

00:29:33:60 00:29:40:40
I never volunteered after that,
except for the 10th Mountain. When they

00:29:40:80 00:29:42:76
had us lined up

00:29:43:12 00:29:45:24
to you, you and you.

00:29:45:44 00:29:51:80
They were actually saying Army, Army,
Navy, Navy, Marine, Marine, Army, Navy.

00:29:52:00 00:29:53:72
and this - selecting.

00:29:53:72 00:29:55:00
And they said Navy for me.

00:29:55:20 00:29:56:80
And I said, no, no.

00:29:58:80 00:30:00:28
So I'm in the Navy.

00:30:00:48 00:30:02:32
I mean, not legally.

00:30:02:32 00:30:03:36
So they said, "All right,

00:30:03:56 00:30:07:12
all the men that have signed up
for the Navy step forward.

00:30:08:88 00:30:10:40
How about you?

00:30:10:57 00:30:12:12
Did you volunteer for the Navy?"

00:30:12:32 00:30:14:96
I said, "No, sir, I didn't
volunteer for anything."

00:30:14:96 00:30:16:28
He says, "What's wrong with you?

00:30:16:48 00:30:21:00
That's the best outfit going in the
Navy now, trying to do you a favor."

00:30:21:00 00:30:21:96
Well, actually, it wasn't.

00:30:22:16 00:30:27:92
He was just trying to get get the Navy
beefed up - the quota for the Navy.

00:30:28:12 00:30:31:80
And he said, "Well, what, what
outfit do you want to get in?"

00:30:31:28 00:30:36:48
I said, "Well, specifically the 10th
Mountain Division, which is the Army."

00:30:36:68 00:30:38:88
And he says, "Wait a minute."

00:30:39:80 00:30:41:76
Said, "Let me get the major. Major,

00:30:41:96 00:30:45:64
this guy wants to go
into the army, into the infantry."

00:30:45:84 00:30:48:24
I said "The mountain infantry."

00:30:48:44 00:30:51:12
And he said, "Yes, have you
had some ski training?"

00:30:51:32 00:30:52:56
I said, "Oh, yes sir,

00:30:52:76 00:30:55:56
up in the mountains of Northern Virginia."

00:30:55:76 00:31:01:52
That was one weekend with a bunch
of Yankee boys with some borrowed skis.

00:31:01:72 00:31:05:20
And so they said, 'Well, you can't,

00:31:05:40 00:31:07:56
you're in the army,

00:31:07:76 00:31:12:56
and you'll have to get your processing
done when you get through basic training."

00:31:12:76 00:31:16:28
Said "You're going to Fort Knox, Kentucky."

00:31:16:64 00:31:23:84
And I got up to Kentucky and I was going
down every day almost on a regular basis.

00:31:24:40 00:31:26:88
"How do I sign up for the
10th Mountain Division?

00:31:27:80 00:31:29:16
How do I get out of this outfit?"

00:31:29:36 00:31:30:88
He said, "You can't."

00:31:31:80 00:31:35:20
And I had to finish my basic
training, which was 13 weeks.

00:31:35:40 00:31:37:44
I was getting desperate

00:31:37:88 00:31:39:32
because I thought once I'd finished

00:31:39:52 00:31:42:48
they'd just send me off to another
armored division thing.

00:31:42:48 00:31:44:16
I didn't want to be
in the armored division,

00:31:44:36 00:31:47:16
I wanedt to be in the 10th
Mountain Division.

00:31:47:36 00:31:49:44
And they got to making jokes about me.

00:31:49:64 00:31:53:64
The rest of the guys "Get
that ski trooper out here.

00:31:53:84 00:31:56:84
He can ski down the mountain, mud."
You know,

00:31:57:40 00:31:58:80
anyway.

00:31:58:28 00:31:59:60
So,

00:32:00:36 00:32:03:64
once again, my father came
to the rescue. I said "Dad,

00:32:03:84 00:32:05:24
I'm getting desperate."

00:32:05:44 00:32:08:48
I said, "Do you have any pull at all?"

00:32:08:68 00:32:12:24
And he says, "Well, I think I
can work, work out something."

00:32:12:44 00:32:16:48
And he called his old roommate
and dear friend Bob Reynolds.

00:32:16:68 00:32:19:24
Bob Reynolds was the -

00:32:19:44 00:32:21:56
they called him "Our Bob."

00:32:21:76 00:32:26:00
He affected chewing tobacco
and talking country.

00:32:26:20 00:32:28:24
And he was married to

00:32:28:44 00:32:33:00
McClaine? McLean? Diamond person?

00:32:33:20 00:32:36:60
Well anyway,
he was not to the manor born.

00:32:36:80 00:32:37:92
He was a country boy,

00:32:38:12 00:32:42:80
but he had tremendous influence and
he pushed the right buttons.

00:32:43:00 00:32:47:80
And the next day I'm off
to Camp Hale Colorado

00:32:47:60 00:32:49:56
and the mountain troops.

00:32:49:76 00:32:52:92
And that was a story in itself.

00:32:53:12 00:32:54:76
I got out there on the train.

00:32:54:96 00:32:59:32
Chug, chug, chug through the - got,

00:32:59:52 00:33:01:68
got to the Rockies.

00:33:01:88 00:33:03:52
No more towns.

00:33:04:16 00:33:06:64
Last town was

00:33:07:28 00:33:10:52
Pueblo Flats or something like that

00:33:10:72 00:33:14:40
where I saw my first
American Indian for real

00:33:14:60 00:33:16:36
not on the movies.

00:33:17:28 00:33:19:16
And we got on up in the high mountains

00:33:19:36 00:33:23:88
and it got colder and more snow
and, and GIs on there.

00:33:24:80 00:33:29:96
They had been disposed of for looked
over and there was a guy over there

00:33:30:15 00:33:32:40
and I said, "Are are you
going where I'm going?"

00:33:32:60 00:33:34:72
He says, "I don't know where are you going?"

00:33:34:92 00:33:38:28
And I said "To Camp Hale, Colorado."

00:33:38:48 00:33:41:12
He says, "That's where 'm going.
10th Mountain?"

00:33:41:32 00:33:42:64
I said, "Yeah."

00:33:42:64 00:33:44:72
And then on the train,
I got to talking to him.

00:33:44:92 00:33:46:92
I said - his name was Bill Briney,

00:33:47:12 00:33:53:00
which I still see him, talk to him
all the time down in Florida.

00:33:53:20 00:33:58:20
He went with NASA later
and retired from NASA.

00:33:58:40 00:34:00:44
But he was captain of the ski team.

00:34:00:64 00:34:06:40
All these superlatives, captain of the ski
team out at the University of Montana.

00:34:06:24 00:34:11:60
And when we'd have a break, he'd take
me out and show me how to do the thing.

00:34:11:80 00:34:14:12
And there was no -
all of the outfit was out

00:34:14:32 00:34:18:12
in the field or out
in the - on the snow masses.

00:34:18:44 00:34:21:92
By the time they came back,
I was doing pretty good.

00:34:22:12 00:34:26:52
I could stand up on skis,
go down a little slope and take a turn.

00:34:26:72 00:34:31:28
And so he - he allowed me to
save face and survive.

00:34:31:48 00:34:34:12
And they never caught
on that I couldn't ski.

00:34:34:32 00:34:36:20
And since subsequently I

00:34:36:40 00:34:44:40
learned how to rock climb and
build ice igloos and live at 14, 15 thousand feet.

00:34:44:24 00:34:47:80
And I was the only southern man
in the outfit.

00:34:47:28 00:34:50:16
And then they caught on by my accent.

00:34:50:36 00:34:52:72
Started calling me Dixie Boy.

00:34:52:92 00:34:56:24
"Hey, Dixie Boy wants some more pie?"

00:34:56:84 00:34:59:68
I said, "Well, how do you say it?"
They'd all laugh.

00:34:59:88 00:35:01:52
"It's pie."

00:35:01:72 00:35:02:92
"Pi-e?"

00:35:03:12 00:35:04:80
"No pie."

00:35:05:32 00:35:07:48
So I started learning to

00:35:07:68 00:35:10:60
talk Yankee English.

00:35:11:32 00:35:13:84
Small sidebar story.

00:35:13:97 00:35:17:32
That's a good story because it is
interesting to think that a person

00:35:17:32 00:35:19:96
from Charlotte could end up
in the 10th Mountain Division.

00:35:20:16 00:35:23:48
Yeah.
Because it's not your usual course.

00:35:23:68 00:35:28:64
And so it's once more how your life has
taken an unusual course to get you some

00:35:28:84 00:35:32:24
place that you wanted to be.
While you were in the service,

00:35:32:24 00:35:33:96
you ended up getting sent overseas.

00:35:33:96 00:35:35:16
Can you talk a little bit about your

00:35:35:36 00:35:38:80
military experience after you
left training in Colorado?

00:35:39:00 00:35:40:96
Yes, well, they did a terrible thing

00:35:41:16 00:35:46:44
to the 10th Mountain Division
then. That spring of '44

00:35:46:64 00:35:49:92
they sent us down to Texas

00:35:50:12 00:35:52:40
and we got as far as

00:35:52:60 00:35:57:96
down out on the prairies, you know, and it
was hot as hell and going someplace.

00:35:58:16 00:36:02:32
Finally, they announced that we
were going to Camp Swift Texas.

00:36:02:32 00:36:03:60
What the heck is the mountain -

00:36:03:80 00:36:06:52
what are the mountain troops
going to do in Texas?

00:36:06:72 00:36:08:12
Everyone is asking.

00:36:08:32 00:36:11:20
And some of the guys were
downright ready to -

00:36:11:40 00:36:15:36
they'd worked too hard to get
in the tenth, I included.

00:36:15:72 00:36:18:36
Anyway, we got to Texas and it was hot.

00:36:18:56 00:36:23:44
And the purpose was to just
drive us as hard as they could.

00:36:23:64 00:36:28:80
And and we we were then sure
that we were going to Burma.

00:36:28:32 00:36:35:20
Tropical area, hot,
and mules and pack animals and and

00:36:35:56 00:36:39:40
arid country and going to Burma,

00:36:39:60 00:36:42:28
you know, over the hump.

00:36:43:48 00:36:47:24
But then they put us on a

00:36:47:44 00:36:48:52
troop ship.

00:36:48:72 00:36:51:24
Not a troop ship, but a

00:36:51:44 00:36:55:40
troop train going through

00:36:55:68 00:37:00:00
Spartanburg, Columbia,
Charlotte, North Carolina.

00:37:00:20 00:37:02:80
And and, um, they had little slits.

00:37:03:00 00:37:08:12
We'd scraped little strips,
slits and the - and the

00:37:08:17 00:37:08:92
windows there.

00:37:09:12 00:37:12:80
So we could look at -
they were blacked out

00:37:12:60 00:37:19:16
and see the countryside going by and came
by the station here right in Charlotte.

00:37:19:26 00:37:20:96
I see Trade Street and everything.

00:37:21:16 00:37:24:80
And I'm saying, oh my God,
my mom and dad are just down the street.

00:37:25:00 00:37:27:12
And so anyway,

00:37:27:52 00:37:30:16
we went overseas

00:37:30:36 00:37:32:28
on the USS

00:37:32:48 00:37:34:40
West Point.

00:37:34:24 00:37:38:56
There were seven thousand soldiers on it.

00:37:38:84 00:37:40:72
Triple decks.

00:37:41:48 00:37:43:80
Got overseas.

00:37:44:44 00:37:49:20
Took us ten, ten days to get over and
no escort.

00:37:49:40 00:37:51:16
High seas.

00:37:52:40 00:37:55:44
And we knew that we were
not going to come back.

00:37:55:84 00:37:58:60
This was going wrong.

00:37:58:80 00:38:01:36
So we got to Naples

00:38:01:56 00:38:04:16
and they put us on LSDs.

00:38:04:36 00:38:06:52
That's the landing craft.

00:38:06:72 00:38:10:52
And we went up the Ligurian coast

00:38:10:72 00:38:14:48
going north out of Naples.

00:38:14:68 00:38:19:80
And so we didn't have the equipment
to do a beach landing.

00:38:20:00 00:38:24:40
But they're gonna put us on the beach
with what we have, which they did.

00:38:24:60 00:38:26:16
But it wasn't an attack.

00:38:26:36 00:38:27:52
The country,

00:38:27:72 00:38:30:28
the territory had been

00:38:30:48 00:38:32:28
acquired.

00:38:33:88 00:38:35:76
What do they call it?

00:38:36:84 00:38:39:64
Stabilized and no firing

00:38:39:84 00:38:44:80
or anything and we went on inland
up to the base of Mount Belvedere.

00:38:45:40 00:38:50:20
And we dug in there and stayed
there about two weeks.

00:38:50:40 00:38:54:40
And then the mission was
just to take that mountain.

00:38:55:00 00:38:58:16
And that was a story
of the 10th right there.

00:38:58:36 00:39:02:12
It had been - this was astounding.

00:39:02:80 00:39:07:56
Three or four American divisions had been

00:39:07:76 00:39:11:16
repulsed from climbing that mountain
or taking that mountain.

00:39:11:22 00:39:12:32
They weren't equipped.

00:39:12:52 00:39:19:56
And we took it in 24 hours and lost -
before the month was out

00:39:19:76 00:39:22:68
we had lost four thousand casualties.

00:39:22:88 00:39:25:92
So it was a severe casualty thing.

00:39:26:12 00:39:27:16
Not all deaths.

00:39:27:36 00:39:29:92
Casualties don't mean killed in action,

00:39:30:12 00:39:32:56
but there were enough
of those that we had

00:39:32:76 00:39:39:48
baptism of fire and I've -
I knew we had done something significant.

00:39:39:68 00:39:43:40
And my dreams of being in heroics

00:39:43:60 00:39:48:20
of the 10th Mountain had come -
come through and I'd come through.

00:39:49:52 00:39:55:20
Then we went on, continued on,
and the spring had come

00:39:55:40 00:40:01:52
by that time. The weather had broken very
fast, just like western North Carolina.

00:40:01:72 00:40:06:84
Same trees, same terrain,
everything on the same parallel.

00:40:07:32 00:40:09:28
So as the Earth turned, we

00:40:09:48 00:40:12:72
you know our winter was their winter.

00:40:13:88 00:40:17:60
So we went on -
that was the Margaret Bigger story

00:40:17:80 00:40:22:60
that I did - when we got
to the pre Po River,

00:40:22:80 00:40:29:88
we had this final big push and it was like
everything on the Italian front just

00:40:30:80 00:40:31:60
exploded.

00:40:31:80 00:40:34:84
Airplanes coming over and

00:40:35:40 00:40:40:84
bombing the areas that were to move into,
which we're very thankful for.

00:40:41:40 00:40:45:72
And we continue to lose casualties.

00:40:46:32 00:40:48:24
And I got -

00:40:48:56 00:40:50:72
got some shrapnel

00:40:51:12 00:40:53:44
and I knew that

00:40:53:64 00:40:56:52
I wasn't going to function
with one hand gone.

00:40:56:52 00:40:57:60
I didn't lose my hand,

00:40:57:80 00:41:03:60
but my action there couldn't be all
swollen, finger almost blown off.

00:41:04:32 00:41:06:40
Not a bad wound.

00:41:06:60 00:41:07:92
And

00:41:09:36 00:41:10:92
some -

00:41:11:28 00:41:13:12
you don't want all

00:41:13:32 00:41:14:48
the rest of the story.

00:41:14:68 00:41:16:84
I would like to you the rest of the story.
Okay. Was the shrapnel,

00:41:17:40 00:41:21:00
first of all, from friendly fire
or was it from enemy fire? Very good.

00:41:21:20 00:41:24:00
It was from friendly - no it was from,

00:41:24:20 00:41:25:56
'scuse me.

00:41:25:76 00:41:31:68
We had friendly fire going over us
and I thought first I was shot by

00:41:32:20 00:41:34:44
someone in back of me.

00:41:35:36 00:41:37:40
And then later I found out the operation

00:41:37:60 00:41:43:40
they pulled out a slug
that came from a mine - a landmine.

00:41:43:24 00:41:46:36
And those were going off
in the field all over the place.

00:41:46:56 00:41:48:16
But it sounds like heroics,

00:41:48:36 00:41:54:80
but I ran across the field
and ryegrass about six inches up

00:41:55:00 00:41:59:72
and I could see everything in slow motion
and I could see the trip wires

00:41:59:92 00:42:04:76
and I was stepping over and running fast
and not having any regard for the guy -

00:42:04:76 00:42:06:28
I thought my guys were behind me.

00:42:06:48 00:42:08:44
I was a squad leader.

00:42:08:64 00:42:15:48
And it to me, like it was get set,
ready, go and ran across the

00:42:15:80 00:42:21:64
goal line or the 100 yard dash,
200, as it were.

00:42:22:16 00:42:26:84
And I hit - saw the road coming
up where we were to reorganize.

00:42:27:20 00:42:28:20
And there was, uh,

00:42:28:40 00:42:33:68
some positions there that were abandoned,
where tanks had moved in

00:42:33:92 00:42:36:28
and secured their tanks and they'd go

00:42:36:48 00:42:41:80
down, fire several shots at night and go
down to the next place

00:42:41:28 00:42:47:40
all along the road so they could keep
the - us, the enemy, from knowing exactly

00:42:47:40 00:42:49:16
where they were and we
couldn't lock in on them.

00:42:49:36 00:42:52:80
So it left a big depression there.

00:42:52:28 00:42:56:76
And I could see the soil
had been recently dug.

00:42:56:96 00:43:01:20
So I just ran and jumped into it
and I looked down and runs again -

00:43:01:40 00:43:06:60
slow motion - looked down and I
jumped over six German soldiers.

00:43:06:80 00:43:09:60
That sounds like a story, but it's true.

00:43:09:80 00:43:13:56
And course, I was terrified
when I turned around.

00:43:13:76 00:43:14:96
What am I gonna do?

00:43:15:16 00:43:18:36
They're gonna really rub
me out and they were

00:43:18:56 00:43:21:60
more frightened than I'd
ever dreamed of being.

00:43:21:76 00:43:23:76
And they'd already had this bombardment.

00:43:23:96 00:43:29:40
Here's this old - as they knew it -
the American army coming after them.

00:43:29:24 00:43:30:40
And

00:43:30:92 00:43:34:84
they were - had gone to the
bathroom and their pants.

00:43:35:40 00:43:36:28
I could see that.

00:43:36:48 00:43:38:32
And so I knew I was in control.
I thought "All right,

00:43:38:52 00:43:42:40
you men, get over here, do this.
Raus!

00:43:42:24 00:43:45:00
I got a lot of pseudo confidence.

00:43:45:20 00:43:46:84
Anyway, so

00:43:47:40 00:43:52:24
I know the story fairly well because
I've told it since that book

00:43:53:16 00:43:58:12
and no one is questioning it,
but I start questioning it later.

00:43:58:32 00:44:04:24
I'm saying cause none of my guys showed
up in the road. Had I overrun them?

00:44:04:44 00:44:07:72
What am I gonna do with these German guys?

00:44:08:16 00:44:11:64
And so I'm sitting - I put them
in the middle of the road,

00:44:11:84 00:44:17:68
I went across the road with the fire
coming in, it's going over my head.

00:44:17:76 00:44:20:56
And if anyone was gonna get hit,
they were gonna get hit,

00:44:20:76 00:44:22:16
not me.

00:44:22:52 00:44:26:80
I was in what they call "in defilade" -

00:44:26:28 00:44:30:40
sounds terrible, but that's what they
call the position. In defilade.

00:44:30:84 00:44:34:24
Behind something, or in the ground.

00:44:34:44 00:44:38:28
And all of a sudden my hand flew up,
my rifle,

00:44:38:28 00:44:42:12
I'm still holding.
It was all bloody. My chest is bloody,

00:44:42:32 00:44:44:12
my arm is bloody,

00:44:44:52 00:44:45:96
and

00:44:46:24 00:44:48:56
the first thing I thought
athletics again.

00:44:48:76 00:44:53:48
Someone hit me with a baseball
or something, a baseball bat.

00:44:54:00 00:45:01:56
So this one young German corporal
came running at me, grabbing his belt.

00:45:01:76 00:45:06:12
And I thought he had,
of course, going for a weapon.

00:45:06:32 00:45:09:52
He had no
intension of herman- harming me.

00:45:09:72 00:45:12:20
He was - when I kicked him in the chest,

00:45:12:40 00:45:18:16
pushed him back cause - and he lands
scrawl- sprawled all over the place.

00:45:18:32 00:45:20:20
And he says, "I help you.
I help you.

00:45:20:40 00:45:21:52
I help."

00:45:21:72 00:45:23:68
And he had a packet

00:45:23:88 00:45:25:44
to help me

00:45:25:64 00:45:28:72
bandage the wound, to stop the bleeding.

00:45:28:92 00:45:32:12
And I felt terrible. Only
momentarily, though.

00:45:32:32 00:45:36:16
And then someone came up and said -
the guys started falling in the road.

00:45:36:36 00:45:44:84
None of my fellows but other - another,
not another company, but another platoon.

00:45:45:40 00:45:47:72
Other platoons. Anyway,

00:45:47:72 00:45:49:32
so I took them on back to the rear.

00:45:49:52 00:45:52:24
And that was my experience with Italy.

00:45:52:44 00:45:54:16
And it was over then.

00:45:56:40 00:45:57:64
Ah - a

00:45:57:88 00:46:01:32
continuance of that story was
later I found out that

00:46:01:52 00:46:07:28
a guy named Bob Dole
was a young lieutenant down about

00:46:07:48 00:46:09:84
quarter of a mile down,
and that's where he got hit,

00:46:10:40 00:46:13:32
also on the same day, the same time.

00:46:13:52 00:46:17:48
No relation to what his
wound was to what mine was.

00:46:18:44 00:46:21:64
Did you ever figure out why
your men didn't follow you?

00:46:21:84 00:46:23:68
That was my the point of my story

00:46:23:88 00:46:25:48
I wanted to tell you.

00:46:25:57 00:46:26:92
I got to thinking about it.

00:46:27:12 00:46:31:24
And I'm saying that's almost
a court martial sort of thing.

00:46:31:44 00:46:33:40
I left my men

00:46:33:64 00:46:35:40
and then I realized I didn't leave them.

00:46:35:60 00:46:38:56
I expected them to follow me.

00:46:38:76 00:46:40:64
Hell, they could run too.

00:46:40:84 00:46:44:80
But I must have run
faster than they thought.

00:46:44:28 00:46:48:40
Once again, they athletics - seriously.

00:46:48:24 00:46:53:44
And so I just figured, well, I
got to the road quicker than they did.

00:46:53:47 00:46:56:80
I don't think so.
I think they were pinned down

00:46:57:00 00:47:02:92
in the field for I read the journals
of what we had done, said most of

00:47:03:12 00:47:08:80
the going across that field
- that rye field -

00:47:08:28 00:47:10:72
that we were pinned down.

00:47:10:92 00:47:12:84
Well, I wasn't pinned down.

00:47:13:40 00:47:14:44
I got to the road.

00:47:14:64 00:47:20:32
So I said I should've stayed with the men,
gone back to inquire what what's going on.

00:47:20:52 00:47:24:60
So I went on an odyssey after that,
after my thinking about it

00:47:24:80 00:47:26:76
and after that article.

00:47:26:96 00:47:31:48
And so I called six of the guys
that were in my squad

00:47:31:84 00:47:36:36
and - most of them were dead

00:47:36:56 00:47:38:00
or

00:47:38:20 00:47:42:32
having Alzheimer's or dementia.

00:47:43:80 00:47:45:28
And I got so discouraged
I couldn't believe it.

00:47:45:48 00:47:48:00
I didn't know who else to call.

00:47:48:20 00:47:50:80
So I was left exactly where I was.

00:47:50:28 00:47:52:40
I don't - do not know.

00:47:52:60 00:47:58:24
I went to a reunion about a year
later down in Greenville and I tried -

00:47:58:44 00:48:00:64
everyone I talked to in the 10th Mountain

00:48:00:84 00:48:03:32
there, and that was
a 10th Mountain reunion.

00:48:03:52 00:48:05:76
There were three of us from E Company

00:48:05:96 00:48:07:76
eighty fifth and the rest,

00:48:07:93 00:48:09:88
every time I'd ask them about "Where were

00:48:10:80 00:48:14:80
you on so-and-so April 14th
when we had the push?"

00:48:14:28 00:48:17:32
"Oh I was there"
and they start telling their story

00:48:17:52 00:48:19:12
but I could never get to my story.

00:48:19:32 00:48:23:52
But I'm saying, well,
where were we supposed to go?

00:48:23:72 00:48:25:72
I mean, were you organizing on the road?

00:48:25:92 00:48:27:12
Said "What road?"

00:48:27:12 00:48:28:32
You know, that kind of stuff.

00:48:28:52 00:48:33:28
So it was not the same situation,
just a few hundred yards over.

00:48:33:48 00:48:35:44
It changed as it went along.

00:48:35:64 00:48:38:24
So they didn't help me at all.

00:48:38:24 00:48:41:60
Probably the only people that really know
were the Germans that were watching you.

00:48:41:80 00:48:45:16
I bet that German young corporal knew.

00:48:45:16 00:48:46:84
And by the way, I got pictures of all -

00:48:47:40 00:48:50:12
I didn't get pictures, but

00:48:50:44 00:48:52:92
Stars and Stripes at a

00:48:53:12 00:48:56:56
Yank magazine
had a cameraman there shooting.

00:48:56:76 00:49:00:68
That's where I got this
picture walking back.

00:49:02:96 00:49:04:36
Excuse me.

00:49:08:88 00:49:10:56
That picture.

00:49:17:96 00:49:19:88
Did you have any idea at the time when you

00:49:20:80 00:49:23:36
saw this picture that you would
end up being in pictures?

00:49:23:36 00:49:25:40
No,
no, but -

00:49:25:24 00:49:29:00
but I was aware of the camera there
and I looked at the guy and

00:49:29:20 00:49:32:36
I think I spoke to him
and I was feeling no pain.

00:49:32:56 00:49:36:96
I had my first experience
and last with morphine.

00:49:37:70 00:49:39:12
And I can see how people can get addicted

00:49:39:32 00:49:43:12
to something like that cause
I was king of the world.

00:49:44:60 00:49:49:44
Well, when you finished your big push
in the Italian front,

00:49:49:64 00:49:53:24
where did you go after that?
And how did you get discharged?

00:49:54:16 00:49:57:56
Went back to Livorno, or Leghorn

00:49:57:76 00:49:59:20
we called it,

00:49:59:72 00:50:03:84
and was in a hospital there for about

00:50:04:20 00:50:06:20
two weeks.

00:50:06:80 00:50:09:80
And every time they'd bring a 10th

00:50:10:00 00:50:14:40
Mountain guy in from the line,
they were still on line.

00:50:14:96 00:50:19:72
And we had had an article written

00:50:19:92 00:50:25:20
in Stars and Stripes about the 10th
Mountain Division and we were called -

00:50:25:40 00:50:29:40
referred to as the Blue Bloods
of the Infantry.

00:50:29:76 00:50:34:12
And so it was kind of - it was untrue.

00:50:34:32 00:50:36:20
But we had the reputation of being

00:50:36:40 00:50:43:96
a Harvard, Yale, Princeton,
Dartmouth, Vermont ski - ski schools.

00:50:45:16 00:50:47:40
And so

00:50:48:40 00:50:50:60
every time they'd bring in a soldier,

00:50:50:80 00:50:55:40
"Where's he from" they'd say "the 10th"
They'd say "Get out the blue plasma."

00:50:55:84 00:50:58:88
And they weren't happy
with the 10th Mountain Division.

00:50:59:80 00:51:00:52
We got all the glory.

00:51:00:72 00:51:03:76
And I talked to many of the guys since,

00:51:03:96 00:51:08:52
I said, "Were we really
that good or just that unique?"

00:51:08:72 00:51:11:80
And it was a combination of the whole
thing that we were

00:51:12:00 00:51:16:92
the Bluebir- Blue Bloods of the army,
which was a terrible thing to do to us.

00:51:17:12 00:51:19:24
But the war was almost over.

00:51:19:44 00:51:21:16
So I was down in -

00:51:23:24 00:51:28:80
and they sent us to Naples,
and I can't remember how I got there.

00:51:29:40 00:51:34:96
I don't remember the passage. Were on army
trucks or buses or did they fly us down?

00:51:35:16 00:51:41:80
They take us on a boat because that's
the way we got up to Livorno, by boat.

00:51:41:36 00:51:43:48
And it must have been -
but I can't remember.

00:51:43:68 00:51:46:52
I seem to have drawn a blank.

00:51:46:72 00:51:51:44
Did you have any contact with the 38th Evac
Hospital while you were in Italy?

00:51:51:44 00:51:52:72
Because they were there?
Yes.

00:51:52:91 00:51:54:32
At the same time.
Right.

00:51:54:32 00:51:56:80
And they had a lot of Charlotte
and Mecklenburg county staff.

00:51:57:00 00:51:59:52
Well, like,

00:51:59:72 00:52:01:00
oh,

00:52:01:28 00:52:03:16
the twins.

00:52:05:80 00:52:06:72
Clarence Kuester.
Kuester -

00:52:06:92 00:52:07:36
yeah.

00:52:07:56 00:52:10:20
Used to talk to him about it,
but he never had -

00:52:10:40 00:52:14:80
he remembers the tenth,
but not directly anything.

00:52:15:24 00:52:18:60
The 8th - 8th

00:52:18:80 00:52:19:80
Airborne.

00:52:20:00 00:52:23:80
They were down in Foggia and

00:52:24:40 00:52:26:80
nothing to do with Charlotte
that I knew of.

00:52:26:23 00:52:27:48
I've met guys from there,

00:52:27:68 00:52:30:84
but they don't remember anything
about the 10th being there.

00:52:31:40 00:52:35:56
They were in the air flying over
doing bombing missions, up

00:52:35:76 00:52:41:56
all pretty heady and fast moving
stuff for an 18 year old, 19 year old.

00:52:41:76 00:52:44:40
And they talk about those kids,

00:52:44:40 00:52:45:40
they don't know how to do anything.

00:52:45:60 00:52:49:68
Those kids do know how to do
something if given the job. They do.

00:52:49:88 00:52:52:40
They just did.
They had to.

00:52:52:60 00:52:55:88
So who took care of your wound?

00:52:58:68 00:53:00:80
I don't know.

00:53:00:28 00:53:03:36
A corpsman came over and I
started walking up the ridge.

00:53:03:56 00:53:06:68
It was a ridge,
not a ridge, but a road going up,

00:53:06:88 00:53:10:80
paralleling to a ridge,
going into the rear.

00:53:10:11 00:53:11:96
And I knew that's where we'd come from,

00:53:12:16 00:53:13:40
not that route.

00:53:13:60 00:53:16:44
So I had them fall in walk ahead of me.

00:53:16:64 00:53:20:80
And then we got fired
on by their own troops.

00:53:20:28 00:53:24:00
And the guy that was the corporal,

00:53:24:20 00:53:25:76
no, it wasn't the corporal.

00:53:25:96 00:53:29:24
It was - I was gonna say the corporal
that tried to help me,

00:53:29:44 00:53:33:28
he was still standing,
but it killed two of the other guys.

00:53:33:48 00:53:37:12
And so it was then down
to about four fellows.

00:53:37:32 00:53:41:44
And then I finally had to let him go.

00:53:41:44 00:53:44:64
They were holding me up because I wanted
to get the hell out of there.

00:53:44:84 00:53:47:16
There were other guys
coming along the trail.

00:53:47:36 00:53:50:92
And everyone was kind of taking
care of the situation.

00:53:51:12 00:53:52:96
What happened to me was

00:53:53:16 00:53:59:80
a corpsman came over and had
had a temporary thing that the German had

00:53:59:28 00:54:05:24
put now put on me, wrap up my arm
and give me a shot of morphine.

00:54:05:44 00:54:08:24
And I thought that was
the coolest thing in the world.

00:54:08:24 00:54:09:40
I mean, all of a sudden,

00:54:09:24 00:54:14:88
everything became whirley and very secure,
like I wasn't even there.

00:54:15:80 00:54:16:56
And I'm saying, no, I can't -

00:54:16:76 00:54:18:00
I am here.

00:54:18:20 00:54:20:64
And a bullet who - doesn't
know the difference.

00:54:20:64 00:54:22:92
So you never really got
separated from your group

00:54:23:12 00:54:24:24
due to your injury?
Yes,

00:54:24:44 00:54:26:32
I never saw them again.

00:54:26:76 00:54:30:16
I never saw - a couple
them I saw at the hospital.

00:54:30:31 00:54:32:76
Oh, you mean my initial group?

00:54:32:96 00:54:34:40
Right.
Yeah.

00:54:34:16 00:54:36:16
I got separated.
Never saw them.

00:54:36:36 00:54:40:28
And I don't know what happened
to most of them. The guys I called

00:54:40:48 00:54:44:20
were - they had they had -
the war was too far over.

00:54:44:40 00:54:47:40
They don't remember the incident.

00:54:47:72 00:54:48:76
I didn't see them at any -

00:54:48:96 00:54:50:52
I've only been to two reunions.

00:54:50:72 00:54:52:48
I didn't see them there.

00:54:52:68 00:54:55:32
And they were just unfortunately,

00:54:55:52 00:54:58:76
they had this dementia
and you could tell it.

00:54:58:96 00:55:01:60
They were just not on all burners,

00:55:01:80 00:55:04:60
not because of the war,
just because of their age.

00:55:04:80 00:55:06:97
This was last year.

00:55:13:52 00:55:15:68
So once you left the military,

00:55:15:88 00:55:19:12
what did you decide to do
with the rest of your life?

00:55:19:52 00:55:21:84
Interesting.
I wanted to become,

00:55:22:40 00:55:24:00
go to art school

00:55:24:20 00:55:28:96
and I wanted to work
on a ranch out in Colorado.

00:55:29:16 00:55:32:36
And then later go to art school

00:55:32:56 00:55:33:84
and -

00:55:34:28 00:55:39:24
but I came back to North Carolina,
mustered out of the service,

00:55:39:39 00:55:41:24
and before I got off the train good

00:55:41:44 00:55:47:20
I was on my way to Chapel Hill on a
football scholarship with my dad and

00:55:47:40 00:55:50:00
Mr. Ralph and Lanninghamm and Eli Springs

00:55:50:20 00:55:56:36
and some of his friends to get me
on the football squad at Chapel Hill.

00:55:56:36 00:55:57:80
So nobody listened to your dream,

00:55:58:00 00:56:01:84
they wanted to make sure that you did
what they thought was best for you.

00:56:02:40 00:56:03:12
Well, they - they did.

00:56:03:32 00:56:05:68
And I saw the validity
of it, you know. Go on.

00:56:05:88 00:56:08:48
Hit it, hit it, hit it.
Hit the iron

00:56:08:68 00:56:11:40
when it was ripe.

00:56:12:32 00:56:18:64
And but I went on back to California
to art school eventually.

00:56:18:92 00:56:23:28
Well can you talk a little bit about
your college days at Chapel Hill?

00:56:24:92 00:56:26:48
Parties,

00:56:26:68 00:56:28:16
girls.

00:56:28:56 00:56:34:24
No, I was once again not a student.

00:56:34:52 00:56:38:16
I've just managed to eke by.

00:56:38:60 00:56:39:68
And

00:56:39:88 00:56:45:20
I knew I wasn't stupid,
but I simply wasn't interested.

00:56:45:40 00:56:50:48
Then I found this new thing
in a direction of track and field,

00:56:50:68 00:56:55:76
and I was doing some drawings and some
paintings and I wanted to be an illustrator

00:56:55:96 00:56:58:88
and I knew I couldn't
do that at Chapel Hill.

00:56:59:80 00:57:02:64
And there was an art center
school in Los Angeles

00:57:03:12 00:57:09:12
nd that meant that I had to
drop out of school to do that.

00:57:09:32 00:57:13:52
But the real reason that their most
immediate reason was to train

00:57:13:72 00:57:17:24
for the Olympics that spring
of 1948.

00:57:17:60 00:57:20:64
And that's what I did.

00:57:21:12 00:57:26:64
And I made the Olympic team,
which was almost a first.

00:57:26:84 00:57:29:00
It was a first for Charlotte.

00:57:29:20 00:57:31:40
No one had ever made an Olympic team.

00:57:31:60 00:57:34:64
And I'm still amazed that

00:57:34:84 00:57:36:12
you know I'm not - because

00:57:36:32 00:57:41:28
this wasn't track and field country
and it wasn't ski country either.

00:57:41:48 00:57:47:12
So once again, there was some sort
of circumstances that allowed me to

00:57:47:32 00:57:49:92
get to the Olympic Games.

00:57:50:12 00:57:53:00
And then I

00:57:53:24 00:57:58:52
started thinking, what am I gonna do now
after the Games?

00:57:58:76 00:58:01:00
One of the things that you didn't mention

00:58:01:20 00:58:04:24
that I think is important
is while you were at Chapel Hill

00:58:04:44 00:58:07:60
you participated in the Sugar Bowl.

00:58:07:88 00:58:14:32
Yeah, that was, that was the beginning
of the end with football, with me.

00:58:14:52 00:58:16:40
The

00:58:17:16 00:58:20:68
you know, you knew - you knew
who the guys were good

00:58:20:88 00:58:22:24
and who were -

00:58:22:44 00:58:27:20
didn't have the skills - had
the tenacity to do what they did.

00:58:27:40 00:58:30:68
They were - they tried and did accomplish.

00:58:31:56 00:58:34:80
I had the skills and I was big.

00:58:35:00 00:58:39:12
One hundred ninety five
and six, six one then,

00:58:39:64 00:58:44:40
and I had more speed than any of the backs,
some of the big backs.

00:58:44:28 00:58:48:00
And but I had Charlie Justice.

00:58:48:20 00:58:51:36
He was, he was our star quarterback

00:58:51:49 00:58:53:44
and I wasn't gonna push him and they

00:58:53:64 00:58:57:68
tried to put me in the same
backfield and I had a big -

00:58:57:82 00:58:58:92
these are not excuses,

00:58:59:12 00:59:03:44
I saw it developing, but I was stubborn
enough that I wasn't going to -

00:59:03:44 00:59:07:24
they tried to get me in the same backfield
in another position in the backfield.

00:59:07:24 00:59:09:80
I didn't want that.
I wanted to play tailback.

00:59:10:00 00:59:15:60
That's what I'd always played,
tailback, single wing formation.

00:59:15:80 00:59:19:60
And so one of the coaches said, "Well,

00:59:19:80 00:59:24:32
if you don't take this, you're not
going to play football at Chapel Hill."

00:59:24:72 00:59:26:64
And I said, oh, yeah, well,

00:59:26:84 00:59:32:36
I'm thinking I'll push Justice out of
position or at least share it with him.

00:59:32:56 00:59:36:40
And I knew full well that I
wasn't that versatile of a ballplayer.

00:59:36:24 00:59:39:12
He was a guy that was had it all together.
I didn't.

00:59:39:32 00:59:41:84
And I was just simply a hard runner and

00:59:42:40 00:59:46:00
so forth and not always a good
broken-field runner.

00:59:46:20 00:59:49:80
I thought I could run people over.

00:59:50:00 00:59:51:84
Isn't that amazing.

00:59:52:40 00:59:55:20
And it - it
it didn't work always.

00:59:55:20 00:59:56:16
So where I should have -

00:59:56:16 00:59:58:80
"Why did you cut to the inside?"
Or "Why didn't you go outside?"

00:59:59:00 01:00:02:80
"Why did you have to - think
you could run over that guy?"

01:00:02:28 01:00:04:40
I said "It just seemed like a good idea.

01:00:04:60 01:00:06:24
A lot of fun."

01:00:06:52 01:00:08:36
That's craziness.

01:00:08:56 01:00:09:72
So,

01:00:10:00 01:00:13:24
I had a - I got to be a pariah.

01:00:13:44 01:00:16:32
And when I went,
we went down the Sugar Bowl

01:00:16:52 01:00:19:16
I had been training all diligently.

01:00:19:36 01:00:23:76
And when we got there,
the press sort of got on -

01:00:23:96 01:00:26:12
press has a lot of influence,

01:00:26:32 01:00:29:72
maybe not today, but they talked
"Why don't you use Simmons?

01:00:29:72 01:00:30:16
Why don't you...?"

01:00:30:36 01:00:33:56
He said, "Well, he - he
doesn't run the signals."

01:00:34:80 01:00:37:20
And they said, "Well,
you know, to hell with that.

01:00:37:40 01:00:38:96
He can run."

01:00:39:16 01:00:43:24
And so they had me play a wingback
and they rigged -

01:00:43:44 01:00:48:32
I don't want to play wingback. They said, "Well,
Justice is gonna throw passes to you.

01:00:48:52 01:00:50:20
We rigged up some plays,

01:00:50:40 01:00:55:40
some in a wingback around
or in plays where they throw."

01:00:55:60 01:00:58:32
And the idea was, it sounds so simple.

01:00:58:52 01:01:00:96
Let's go running down as fast as I could

01:01:01:16 01:01:04:76
down the sidelines
and then Justice would drop back.

01:01:04:96 01:01:08:16
And I'm not it sounds like
a story like my story.

01:01:08:36 01:01:13:40
Maybe the guys that were there didn't see
it that way, but it was an actual fact.

01:01:13:24 01:01:16:28
And we ran those things
over and over and over

01:01:16:48 01:01:19:52
and I had it down where it was a natural -

01:01:19:72 01:01:22:64
be easy because they wouldn't
be expecting me to run down.

01:01:22:64 01:01:24:44
I wasn't an end
I wasn't a back

01:01:24:64 01:01:27:84
and I wasn't Justice.

01:01:28:40 01:01:29:68
Ball was snapped to Justice.

01:01:29:88 01:01:33:84
I ran around and kept going down
the end and he'd throw way over.

01:01:34:40 01:01:35:76
And I'd see guys coming up,

01:01:35:96 01:01:37:32
my own teammates.

01:01:37:52 01:01:43:80
And I just - they thought I was running full
speed and I, being a sprinter that I was,

01:01:44:00 01:01:46:68
I just accelerated to go
by them with the ball with timing

01:01:46:88 01:01:48:40
just right.

01:01:49:44 01:01:51:40
They didn't use it.

01:01:52:68 01:01:54:16
Too risky.

01:01:54:36 01:01:55:76
Didn't use it.

01:01:55:96 01:01:59:20
So as I sat on the bench

01:01:59:92 01:02:03:16
through the whole thing and at the last

01:02:03:36 01:02:06:80
few minutes I went in to play
the regular position

01:02:07:00 01:02:09:52
and didn't do anything.

01:02:09:72 01:02:11:76
I went to the showers.

01:02:12:44 01:02:15:12
I was twenty-four years old.

01:02:15:32 01:02:16:80
Grown man.

01:02:17:00 01:02:18:60
And I remember just crying.

01:02:18:80 01:02:21:48
So disappointed. Had my big chance

01:02:21:68 01:02:23:36
and they didn't use it.

01:02:23:56 01:02:27:72
And I knew I could have done it.
And they were right,

01:02:27:92 01:02:30:96
and, you know, according
to my feelings, they were right

01:02:31:16 01:02:34:68
in devising the play.

01:02:34:88 01:02:36:56
But not so they didn't use me.

01:02:36:76 01:02:39:60
So I went in the showers there

01:02:39:80 01:02:41:72
and I was just - soaped myself all up

01:02:41:92 01:02:47:28
in the face and washing
and crying like crazy, just

01:02:47:48 01:02:48:72
sobbing

01:02:49:40 01:02:50:60
and then dried off.

01:02:50:80 01:02:54:28
And Coach Dale Ranson,

01:02:54:60 01:02:57:48
he was sort of a halfway trainer,

01:02:57:68 01:02:59:20
track coach.

01:02:59:40 01:03:02:68
He came in and I yelled over and I said,

01:03:03:00 01:03:04:80
"Coach Dale, I'm going out for track

01:03:05:00 01:03:10:00
and we're gonna make the Olympic Games."
Something bravado like that.

01:03:10:20 01:03:12:72
He said, "I'm glad to hear that.

01:03:12:92 01:03:14:56
I think you're right."

01:03:14:76 01:03:20:40
Something to the effect.
And I came on back and ran the indoor season

01:03:20:24 01:03:23:72
and broke some records and got
to thinking of the decathlon

01:03:23:92 01:03:24:88
and

01:03:25:52 01:03:28:32
as they say, the rest is history.

01:03:28:52 01:03:32:40
And that was a disappointment,
but not like the football.

01:03:32:24 01:03:35:88
Football is a bitter, bitter thing to me.

01:03:36:56 01:03:40:36
You know, that J.V. thing
that you saw, the picture?

01:03:40:56 01:03:41:84
We went down to -

01:03:42:40 01:03:45:64
it really does sound like
I think I'm pretty good,

01:03:46:20 01:03:47:84
which I did.

01:03:48:32 01:03:49:64
But it's true.

01:03:49:84 01:03:50:88
We went on -

01:03:51:80 01:03:56:76
they put me on a J.V. team one time
when they went to Miami to play.

01:03:56:96 01:04:00:24
And a bunch of what we call bow honks -

01:04:00:44 01:04:04:44
all good ballplayers,
but not the first string.

01:04:04:64 01:04:09:00
And I scored five touchdowns in that game.
I'm sorry -

01:04:09:20 01:04:13:44
what did I say it was that we were playing? Who?
You called them bow hunks.

01:04:13:44 01:04:17:40
Oh, yeah.
When we were playing the Navy plebes,

01:04:17:96 01:04:19:16
which wasn't the greatest team

01:04:19:36 01:04:24:96
in the world, but I did some super
running and they did some super blocking

01:04:25:16 01:04:28:28
and they saw the play playback of it

01:04:28:48 01:04:31:72
and told me that they wanted me
to come back out for the squad.

01:04:31:92 01:04:33:36
I'd quit

01:04:33:72 01:04:35:20
and I

01:04:35:40 01:04:37:36
decided that I would.

01:04:37:56 01:04:40:48
And I called my dad and said
that I was going back out.

01:04:40:68 01:04:44:40
He said, "Well, this time you can't quit.

01:04:44:24 01:04:48:12
You know, they've asked
you back out and you quit,

01:04:48:32 01:04:52:00
and you either stand by your
guns or you go back out.

01:04:52:20 01:04:54:76
And when you - if it happens
again, you stay there."

01:04:54:96 01:04:58:28
And I did the rest of the season.

01:04:58:48 01:05:00:00
Was very devastating to me.

01:05:00:20 01:05:06:72
But it made - gave me the determination
to be a national rated

01:05:06:92 01:05:10:48
track and field athlete.

01:05:11:80 01:05:13:40
Sad story.

01:05:13:40 01:05:15:60
Well, actually
I think it has sort of a happy ending

01:05:15:80 01:05:19:72
because when you play
in a sport like football,

01:05:19:92 01:05:23:72
where you play and how you play is
determined by lots of other people.

01:05:23:72 01:05:26:40
Sure.
And because you have a strong sense of self

01:05:26:40 01:05:29:44
going into it, something like track
and field where you're really competing

01:05:29:64 01:05:33:44
against yourself to beat the last
record or your last record -

01:05:33:64 01:05:35:96
You've been reading some books on sports.

01:05:36:16 01:05:39:96
- then it's really a suit, a sport that's
better suited for your personality.

01:05:40:16 01:05:41:52
That's that's what it is.

01:05:41:52 01:05:42:96
And you had talent in both areas,

01:05:43:16 01:05:46:12
but you couldn't have excelled,
at least in your day,

01:05:46:32 01:05:51:24
any further because professional
sports was not to what it is now.

01:05:51:44 01:05:53:72
And you could have ended your career as

01:05:53:92 01:05:58:16
a wonderful college player,
but you really would have kind of really

01:05:58:36 01:06:01:20
ended everything unless
you'd gone into coaching.

01:06:01:39 01:06:04:92
Well I'll be darned.
So I think - well, certainly you're right.

01:06:05:12 01:06:07:80
And the fact that -

01:06:08:40 01:06:12:24
that the way in fact,
I was quoted as saying,

01:06:12:44 01:06:15:88
"I don't need any blockers,
I don't want any blockers."

01:06:15:90 01:06:17:40
And I didn't said that to you.

01:06:17:60 01:06:21:56
You know, I like to run over
people - thought I could anyway.

01:06:21:76 01:06:24:44
And I broke with plays.

01:06:24:64 01:06:26:40
The fact

01:06:26:60 01:06:28:44
that story with

01:06:29:12 01:06:33:24
Ron Green I broke the signals.

01:06:33:60 01:06:37:60
That was the thing he -
but he had always had possibilities if he

01:06:37:80 01:06:41:20
broke the signals
and then he went on as all these other

01:06:41:40 01:06:46:32
things that I'd attempted to do
and really didn't do.

01:06:46:41 01:06:47:76
And so it was an ironic thing.

01:06:47:96 01:06:52:12
And he says and he went through the rest
of his life as a ne'er do well.

01:06:52:32 01:06:55:16
Never did well.
Ha ha ha.

01:06:55:40 01:06:57:56
In other words
I got it.

01:06:57:56 01:06:58:68
And I ask Ron about it.

01:06:58:88 01:07:03:60
He says, "Of course, a minute that you did
all these things, you did so many things

01:07:03:80 01:07:08:72
more than Justice would have done,
but you broke the signals

01:07:08:92 01:07:10:72
and you still break them."

01:07:10:92 01:07:13:40
I said, "Yeah, that's it."

01:07:13:24 01:07:16:12
And what that came from, I don't know.

01:07:16:32 01:07:22:72
So another kind of wild and crazy idea was
to leave this area and go to California,

01:07:22:92 01:07:26:12
to art school, which is
certainly not what most normal

01:07:26:18 01:07:28:72
Charlotte men were doing at that time.
Yeah.

01:07:28:72 01:07:32:32
So can you tell us a little bit about life
at art school and the things you learned

01:07:32:52 01:07:35:96
and the opportunities you had?

01:07:36:16 01:07:37:60
Thank you.

01:07:37:80 01:07:41:76
I went out with the famed illustrator,

01:07:41:96 01:07:47:28
then, William Meade Prince,
who was at the university teaching art,

01:07:48:80 01:07:50:84
had done all of the Saturday Evening Post

01:07:51:40 01:07:58:56
covers and and Little B been - Little B ben [?]
Plantation about Black folks

01:07:58:76 01:08:03:72
and they were wonderful drawings
of Negro culture,

01:08:03:92 01:08:05:60
Black culture

01:08:05:80 01:08:08:60
and humorously done.

01:08:08:80 01:08:11:20
A series - great illustrator

01:08:11:40 01:08:14:00
and I admired him tremendously.

01:08:14:20 01:08:20:96
He and his wife after the Lost Colony
one summer they were going to California

01:08:21:16 01:08:25:56
and I knew that I was
going to art school there.

01:08:25:56 01:08:27:76
So they said, "Well,
we will give you your trip

01:08:27:96 01:08:31:28
all you have to do is drive us out there."

01:08:31:28 01:08:32:96
And so I said, "But I won't get you back.

01:08:33:16 01:08:34:84
I'm gonna stay if I get there."

01:08:35:40 01:08:36:48
They said, "That's fine."

01:08:36:68 01:08:42:76
So I drove them out and I attended - took
Billy Prince on by Art Center School

01:08:42:96 01:08:46:32
and he said, "This is
a good place, illustration,

01:08:46:52 01:08:48:32
you stay right here."

01:08:48:64 01:08:51:80
So I did.

01:08:51:28 01:08:52:52
And

01:08:52:72 01:08:55:72
it was very exciting to me.

01:08:55:92 01:08:58:28
I worked hard and

01:08:58:84 01:09:02:36
there was nothing I couldn't do and

01:09:02:56 01:09:07:44
without trying and I was trying very hard
to be an illustrator.

01:09:07:64 01:09:13:40
And, and I'm amazed at how much information
I took away never to have used it ever

01:09:13:60 01:09:17:72
again, except in some of my little
paintings and attempts,

01:09:17:92 01:09:21:80
so not illustratively.

01:09:22:00 01:09:26:80
And I've never, given my dad
a lot of credit for what he did.

01:09:27:00 01:09:30:12
And it was so,
so simple to have done that.

01:09:30:32 01:09:34:40
And one thing that I'm going
to do for him before I die,

01:09:34:24 01:09:38:80
I'm going to do some good paintings,
and that's my next phase,

01:09:38:28 01:09:41:48
or writing something which I
don't think I'll ever do.

01:09:41:68 01:09:43:56
But the paintings I could do. I

01:09:43:76 01:09:49:44
have painted hundreds and hundreds
of pictures and illustrations in my mind,

01:09:49:64 01:09:51:44
and I haven't lost any talent.

01:09:51:64 01:09:56:20
I mean, any talent that I
had. Maybe have even gained some.

01:09:56:40 01:10:01:40
So that's that was his inspiration to me.

01:10:01:24 01:10:05:20
Was he supportive of you moving
to California to study art?

01:10:05:20 01:10:06:44
He thought it was foolish,

01:10:06:64 01:10:10:44
but if I wanted to do it,
I needed to do it.

01:10:10:64 01:10:14:64
And he said, but if you do,
I'll support you

01:10:14:84 01:10:18:56
and this, financially and otherwise.

01:10:18:56 01:10:20:28
And I said, well, I have the G.I. Bill.

01:10:20:48 01:10:25:60
He said, No I mean, if you get into trouble
and need some money, I'll get that to you.

01:10:25:80 01:10:29:80
And I want you to stay
and finish your course there.

01:10:30:00 01:10:32:72
And he'd - I'd come back on

01:10:32:92 01:10:35:52
vacations with armful
of drawings and things

01:10:35:72 01:10:37:52
and this is where I am now,

01:10:37:72 01:10:39:76
this is what I'm doing now.

01:10:39:96 01:10:42:20
And he says, "These look good to me,

01:10:42:24 01:10:45:84
I don't know why I want to stay any
longer" you know, that kind of thing.

01:10:46:40 01:10:49:48
I said, "Well, it's going to be
very competitive in New York,

01:10:49:68 01:10:51:60
and when I go up there" and I went up

01:10:51:80 01:10:57:28
to New York with a portfolio of stuff
and I just couldn't hack it.

01:10:57:48 01:11:03:68
I knew that I was going to be a little
underling sketching for the ad agency

01:11:03:88 01:11:07:64
and I wanted to be
smoking a pipe and living

01:11:07:84 01:11:12:68
up on the top of a mountain,
doing wildlife illustrations and things.

01:11:12:88 01:11:16:24
Very much in fantasy type world.

01:11:16:44 01:11:17:88
Still have it.

01:11:18:32 01:11:20:44
Well, you actually did
get your fantasy world,

01:11:20:64 01:11:24:24
but before you got your fantasy
role in Hollywood, you went to the

01:11:24:44 01:11:26:44
Olympics.
Oh, yeah, that.

01:11:26:64 01:11:30:52
So let's talk a little bit about your
trips overseas.

01:11:30:52 01:11:31:88
You were a two time Olympian.

01:11:32:80 01:11:35:12
Can you tell our audience about your ...?

01:11:35:32 01:11:38:60
Well, that was, of course,
a highlight of my life.

01:11:38:80 01:11:40:16
Really, I'm

01:11:40:36 01:11:43:00
every moment of it,

01:11:43:48 01:11:45:96
I appreciated it that I was there.

01:11:46:16 01:11:48:40
I'm actually on the Olympic team.

01:11:48:60 01:11:53:88
And how many times I looked at Olympic
books with the United States Olympic team

01:11:54:80 01:11:59:96
and Chariots of Fire, which
wasn't there then, but it was the

01:12:00:16 01:12:03:68
last time the United States
ever went over on

01:12:03:88 01:12:05:84
an Olympic trip

01:12:06:32 01:12:07:92
on a ship.

01:12:08:12 01:12:11:28
And ironically,
it was the same ship that I went overseas

01:12:11:48 01:12:14:92
with five years earlier
with the 10th Mountain Division.

01:12:15:12 01:12:21:24
It was called the USS West Point,
reconverted from the USS America,

01:12:21:44 01:12:26:36
reconverted back to the luxury ship
that took the Olympic team over.

01:12:26:38 01:12:28:52
Just unbelievable
wasn't it.

01:12:28:72 01:12:30:80
Amazing coincidence.

01:12:31:00 01:12:32:64
Yeah, so here I am again.

01:12:32:84 01:12:36:40
And the games were

01:12:36:64 01:12:38:64
just the notion of the whole thing -

01:12:38:84 01:12:45:12
wonderment. Never doubted that I was going
to do anything but come through

01:12:45:32 01:12:51:48
and coming through meant a gold medal,
which I kept to myself.

01:12:51:92 01:12:54:72
Bob Mathias was -

01:12:57:20 01:13:00:00
You know I think of it now.

01:13:01:28 01:13:04:80
I just think he's gonna
be too tough to die.

01:13:05:00 01:13:06:96
He'll pull it off somehow.

01:13:07:16 01:13:08:56
Maybe he won't,

01:13:08:76 01:13:10:60
but I had just had that thought

01:13:10:80 01:13:14:12
now that he's critically ill and

01:13:14:32 01:13:17:52
the last I heard,
he had three days to live,

01:13:17:72 01:13:19:92
approximately three days.

01:13:20:12 01:13:21:24
Anyway,

01:13:21:44 01:13:23:76
he was a tenacious guy and he was a kid.

01:13:23:96 01:13:27:80
He was only to be 18

01:13:27:88 01:13:28:96
for all intent.

01:13:29:16 01:13:33:76
I think he had his 18th
birthday when he was overseas.

01:13:34:52 01:13:36:40
And

01:13:36:76 01:13:38:76
I'm lost
in Bob Mathias now -

01:13:38:96 01:13:40:48
what about me?
Yeah.

01:13:40:68 01:13:42:16
I thought I could win.

01:13:42:36 01:13:47:28
And my dad and I had figured out on paper.
If we did this

01:13:47:48 01:13:48:56
that's what you do.

01:13:48:76 01:13:51:68
But you have to do it,
decathlon the way it works,

01:13:51:88 01:13:53:20
the ten events.

01:13:53:40 01:13:59:40
And if I high jumped so much this or
do so much that, get so many more points.

01:13:59:60 01:14:01:96
Got to work on this event.

01:14:02:16 01:14:07:60
And it started the second day
I was leading the decathlon.

01:14:07:80 01:14:14:00
That's six events out and I'm
leading the whole damn shebang.

01:14:14:20 01:14:20:32
And then it hit it hit like it was almost
as some sort of a bad back or something.

01:14:20:52 01:14:24:80
I don't know if it's something
that it was just too good to be true.

01:14:25:00 01:14:26:24
I -

01:14:26:44 01:14:33:56
started having trouble with my hand and I
thought it was maybe the finger injury

01:14:34:84 01:14:41:68
and cause the discus slipped out of my
hand twice and I only had one throw left.

01:14:41:88 01:14:43:88
And I got myself together to hit it.

01:14:44:80 01:14:45:40
I had the

01:14:45:60 01:14:51:48
ability to throw 135, 140,
which I threw in the trials,

01:14:52:92 01:14:57:76
and I choked and I threw
one hundred and seven feet.

01:14:58:16 01:15:00:84
And it took me off the board, put me down.

01:15:01:40 01:15:02:84
I had to work on remaining events.

01:15:03:40 01:15:06:44
I had to work back up to third place.

01:15:06:96 01:15:10:40
And I was - I was devastated.

01:15:11:24 01:15:13:32
And my dad was over there with

01:15:13:52 01:15:14:96
Mr. Earl Whitten

01:15:15:16 01:15:18:96
of Whitten Construction
Company or Southeastern.

01:15:19:16 01:15:21:12
They were great friends.

01:15:21:88 01:15:24:64
And Mr. Whitten was
very upset.

01:15:24:84 01:15:26:72
And my dad was -

01:15:26:92 01:15:30:56
he sniffed when he'd get -
get worried about something or

01:15:30:76 01:15:32:40
wasn't sad about it.

01:15:32:24 01:15:34:20
He said, "Well,

01:15:34:24 01:15:35:80
we'll just have to put that behind us.

01:15:36:00 01:15:38:32
We've got other things to do in life,

01:15:38:52 01:15:41:28
and Olympic Games is not everything."

01:15:41:28 01:15:42:32
Something to that effect.

01:15:42:52 01:15:45:64
Some heroics like that.
And I said "Yeah, but not for me!"

01:15:45:84 01:15:47:48
You know. "I had my chance."

01:15:47:48 01:15:49:48
"Don't talk about that anymore.
It's over.

01:15:49:68 01:15:50:76
It's done."

01:15:50:96 01:15:52:24
And then I,

01:15:52:44 01:15:53:56
I

01:15:54:68 01:15:56:32
went back

01:15:56:52 01:15:59:40
four years later to the
second Olympic Games.

01:15:59:24 01:16:00:40
And in the meantime,

01:16:00:60 01:16:08:24
I'd gone to Japan on a tour
with a - with the Olympic or national team

01:16:08:44 01:16:11:16
and over there competed for three months

01:16:11:36 01:16:17:72
in Japan and the first never
even told him that I was going

01:16:17:92 01:16:18:80
or

01:16:19:00 01:16:25:24
my mother and dad, I cabled them from,
from Tokyo and said, "I'm in Japan."

01:16:25:44 01:16:27:64
They wondered where I was.

01:16:27:84 01:16:29:20
And I said,

01:16:29:40 01:16:37:32
"I'm over here with an AAU team and I think
I'm going to the Olympic Games in '52."

01:16:37:52 01:16:39:40
This was in 51.

01:16:39:60 01:16:44:84
He said, "I thought you said you were
gonna give it up."

01:16:45:24 01:16:47:24
And I said, "Well,

01:16:47:96 01:16:49:60
one more time."

01:16:49:80 01:16:52:76
So when I competed over there

01:16:52:96 01:16:54:24
and I placed third,

01:16:54:44 01:16:57:24
lucky to have gotten that.

01:16:57:44 01:16:59:88
Did the best I could,

01:17:00:80 01:17:02:36
but it wasn't enough for

01:17:02:56 01:17:09:72
beating Bob Mathias or Milton Campbell,
who was the new young guy on the horizon.

01:17:09:96 01:17:11:80
But he only beat me twenty six points.

01:17:11:99 01:17:13:84
That's half an inch in the long jump.

01:17:14:40 01:17:15:12
It's a -

01:17:15:80 01:17:18:52
two inches in the high jump.

01:17:19:76 01:17:24:36
And in retrospect, I feel I could have

01:17:24:56 01:17:30:40
done that had I known the course,
the course was so close,

01:17:30:52 01:17:32:48
but I didn't do it.

01:17:32:68 01:17:35:28
And I said, well, I got third.

01:17:35:39 01:17:36:64
I went over as third man,

01:17:36:84 01:17:39:60
I'm coming back as a third man.

01:17:39:80 01:17:42:28
So I was satisfied and then

01:17:42:48 01:17:46:80
took a - took a lap after the 1500
meters because my dad was on the other

01:17:47:00 01:17:52:24
side of the finish
and I saw dad up in the stands.

01:17:52:44 01:17:53:92
And I remember heroics again.

01:17:54:12 01:17:58:32
I took my shoes and tied
the laces together and said, "Dad,

01:17:58:52 01:18:00:88
look! Look!" I said

01:18:00:88 01:18:02:32
"Third place, that ain't bad."

01:18:02:52 01:18:04:44
I said. "And that's it!

01:18:04:64 01:18:06:00
It's over."

01:18:08:40 01:18:10:32
In other words, he - he concurred.

01:18:10:52 01:18:14:24
He says "About time."

01:18:22:36 01:18:24:84
Talk about your Hollywood days.

01:18:25:28 01:18:28:64
I'm sure there's not anyone

01:18:28:84 01:18:30:48
in this city

01:18:30:88 01:18:32:64
who is

01:18:33:80 01:18:39:40
over 50 who has not seen
South Pacific at least once,

01:18:39:60 01:18:42:40
and I know that you had
an extensive movie career.

01:18:42:60 01:18:47:52
But South Pacific, I think, is probably
the one that most people will recognize.

01:18:48:80 01:18:51:36
Could you tell us a little bit
about how you got that role?

01:18:53:16 01:18:55:88
I remember there were some circumstances
I had -

01:18:56:80 01:18:57:96
I have to think about it.

01:19:00:84 01:19:02:20
Well,

01:19:02:40 01:19:06:36
I had done a television series,

01:19:06:56 01:19:08:72
a pilot film,

01:19:09:72 01:19:13:16
and it didn't sell.

01:19:13:44 01:19:19:20
And my agent sent me out to 20th
Century to meet Josh Logan

01:19:20:20 01:19:21:76
and

01:19:21:96 01:19:24:36
he hadn't seen any film on me.

01:19:24:56 01:19:28:32
And so they got some little
film that I did, Universal,

01:19:28:52 01:19:29:52
and

01:19:29:68 01:19:31:32
so I looked all right on camera.

01:19:31:52 01:19:36:40
And he said, "We're gonna
run a test on you for

01:19:36:60 01:19:39:32
Commander Harbison."

01:19:39:92 01:19:44:96
And in the meantime, I had -
a test was set up,

01:19:45:16 01:19:49:00
and I knew some of the guys
that were going to test for it.

01:19:49:00 01:19:50:52
And they were pretty heavy hitters.

01:19:50:72 01:19:53:40
One was Jack Lord,

01:19:53:24 01:19:55:00
you know, in - Hawaii Five-0?

01:19:55:00 01:19:57:32
Hawaii Five-0. He was a good
actor, a trained actor.

01:19:57:52 01:19:59:80
I was not.

01:19:59:72 01:20:02:80
And I had was working.

01:20:03:00 01:20:07:48
I picked up a little piece
of marlin rope and I was

01:20:07:68 01:20:09:56
working up a bit for my scene,

01:20:09:76 01:20:12:36
you know, as a young officer,

01:20:12:56 01:20:18:60
saying lines and wrapping up the rope and
doing something with it

01:20:18:80 01:20:20:44
as my prop.

01:20:21:60 01:20:28:96
And when it came time for me to do
my scene, he had picked up my rope.

01:20:30:32 01:20:33:56
I don't - to this day, I don't
know whether he saw me doing it

01:20:33:76 01:20:36:48
and it looked like working on it.

01:20:36:68 01:20:42:20
And when I put it down, he picked up
the rope and I didn't have my prop,

01:20:42:76 01:20:46:56
as I'm tying this wire together, you know.

01:20:46:76 01:20:49:92
So anyway, that wasn't a reason.

01:20:50:16 01:20:57:40
He didn't know I did, but I
mysteriously got the role

01:20:57:60 01:20:59:44
and I couldn't believe it.

01:20:59:64 01:21:02:80
And then I was going to
Hawaii -

01:21:02:28 01:21:03:36
Kauai.

01:21:03:56 01:21:06:60
Stayed over there three months.

01:21:07:28 01:21:11:84
Shot a few frames over there.
No call.

01:21:11:84 01:21:13:84
Well, I
more than that, I guess.

01:21:13:84 01:21:14:32
But we did,

01:21:14:52 01:21:18:32
were doing all of my
interiors back in L.A.,

01:21:18:76 01:21:21:36
so I had this glorious

01:21:21:56 01:21:23:68
three months over there.

01:21:24:56 01:21:27:40
And my little

01:21:27:24 01:21:31:68
sweetie for that movie was
a cute little girl.

01:21:31:88 01:21:32:92
And -

01:21:33:60 01:21:40:52
by the way, she was Vietnamese - part
Vietnamese, France Nuyen.

01:21:40:88 01:21:42:28
And

01:21:42:48 01:21:44:56
she was awfully young

01:21:44:76 01:21:50:72
and I was feeling very old at 32,
something like that you know.

01:21:50:92 01:21:54:36
Well gosh she had her 18th birthday there

01:21:54:56 01:21:59:40
and she was just as cute as she
could be and became a great friend.

01:21:59:72 01:22:02:36
I knew better than to go further -
I'd gotten

01:22:02:56 01:22:07:56
her - and I wasn't a rogue I wasn't go around, but
I knew that it wasn't the thing to do.

01:22:07:76 01:22:11:84
Get involved - just on a friend -
to be seen with her too often.

01:22:13:12 01:22:16:24
So I start shying away from her a bit.

01:22:16:44 01:22:17:84
But she paints and draw.

01:22:18:40 01:22:19:72
But we did that together.

01:22:19:72 01:22:22:48
But, you know, all these years later,
it's the only friend I have from

01:22:22:68 01:22:25:76
South Pacific. I hear from her
all the time.

01:22:25:96 01:22:31:56
And when - when I saw her the first
time a couple of years ago,

01:22:31:76 01:22:36:70
she is gorgeous
and she's 65 years old now.

01:22:36:90 01:22:39:36
Little Liat is 65.

01:22:39:56 01:22:41:92
Little - you know.
Do you remember that?

01:22:42:12 01:22:43:24
Happy talking.
Yes.

01:22:43:44 01:22:45:00
So she was Bloody Mary's daughter
in the film on the show.

01:22:45:20 01:22:46:68
Yeah, that's right.

01:22:46:88 01:22:48:52
And she is so sweet.

01:22:48:72 01:22:52:40
And she calls me about things
that are happening to her.

01:22:52:60 01:22:53:84
And

01:22:54:76 01:22:57:28
I'll be seeing her again
as - went up to Asheville,

01:22:57:48 01:23:01:76
she was there for a film fair
and I got some pictures of her.

01:23:01:96 01:23:05:80
So that legacy continued.

01:23:06:72 01:23:11:36
And it was it was a kind
of a romance earlier, but

01:23:11:45 01:23:12:40
not to begin with.

01:23:12:60 01:23:16:40
And she says, "Oh, you were
trying so hard to get me in bed."

01:23:16:16 01:23:17:96
Something like I said, "No, I wasn't.

01:23:17:96 01:23:19:16
It was just the opposite.

01:23:19:36 01:23:22:24
I was trying to keep myself from it."

01:23:22:64 01:23:24:28
Well, I think you sell yourself short

01:23:24:48 01:23:28:44
on the part that you won,
because from what I read in the newspaper,

01:23:28:64 01:23:31:80
they had originally written
that part for a man older

01:23:31:80 01:23:35:56
and they liked you.
I know that they changed the script.

01:23:35:76 01:23:36:16
Yeah.

01:23:36:36 01:23:41:88
The - Josh Logan, the director,
wanted to add a little romance,

01:23:42:80 01:23:46:40
a little dimension to the character,
not all military stuff.

01:23:46:60 01:23:48:76
I didn't know that at the time.

01:23:48:96 01:23:55:28
But later I found out that he had
because then I started seeing

01:23:55:48 01:23:58:44
other performances of South Pacific and it

01:23:58:64 01:24:06:56
was for a much older, pompous sort of guy,
Russ Brown, who played the Captain,

01:24:06:76 01:24:08:56
Captain Brackett,

01:24:09:20 01:24:11:16
he has a line in there.

01:24:11:36 01:24:14:32
And Russ was about 70 then.

01:24:14:52 01:24:20:80
And we roomed together for about a week
until I couldn't stand his snoring.

01:24:21:00 01:24:22:24
And -

01:24:22:68 01:24:24:88
but we were good friends.

01:24:25:80 01:24:28:76
But he was a Broadway
star and Damn Yankees.

01:24:28:96 01:24:34:56
He was the Casey Stengel
part of the manager.

01:24:34:76 01:24:40:12
And he had a line and I
had a line, someone said.

01:24:42:72 01:24:45:40
"You know his line?"

01:24:45:24 01:24:47:00
Well, I'm a little confused on it.

01:24:47:20 01:24:52:80
But his - his response was - the line was I'm

01:24:52:28 01:24:59:00
a man of 53 years old and I hardly
consider myself over the hill.

01:24:59:20 01:25:02:28
You've got my meaning, Commander?

01:25:02:48 01:25:04:32
Yes, sir, I understand.

01:25:04:52 01:25:08:12
You know, and he was an older
man in reality anyway.

01:25:08:32 01:25:11:80
But he looked like he was about
seventy five, which he was.

01:25:12:00 01:25:15:48
And I always got a kick out of that line.

01:25:15:68 01:25:19:76
What are some of the other movies
that you were in that you really enjoyed?

01:25:22:20 01:25:25:12
Some television shows. You like
television shows better?

01:25:25:32 01:25:29:76
Well, they were better vehicles for me.

01:25:30:96 01:25:32:56
I did

01:25:33:28 01:25:36:80
one called The Restless Gun.
And I've looked up

01:25:37:00 01:25:39:40
The Restless Gun

01:25:39:24 01:25:40:72
and it was a movie.

01:25:40:92 01:25:43:88
And they've done about three
or four Restless Guns.

01:25:44:80 01:25:47:64
As Clint Eastwood's movie The Unforgiven.

01:25:47:84 01:25:52:88
There were about six previous movies
made back into the 30s with that title.

01:25:53:80 01:25:54:76
I didn't know they could do that.

01:25:54:96 01:26:01:80
The Unforgiven that he won
the Academy Award with. When you were

01:26:01:28 01:26:07:60
interested in a career in Hollywood,
did you see yourself more as a movie star

01:26:07:80 01:26:13:80
or more going towards TV serials or
movies made for television?

01:26:14:00 01:26:17:20
You know, I - looking back,

01:26:17:40 01:26:20:68
I didn't have the foggiest
what it was about.

01:26:20:68 01:26:22:40
And one of the things that was just

01:26:22:60 01:26:26:44
elementary and it never occurred to me
to establish,

01:26:26:64 01:26:29:80
and when you're doing a part,

01:26:29:28 01:26:31:88
who was Bill Harbison?

01:26:32:80 01:26:33:96
Did he have a wife?

01:26:34:16 01:26:36:52
Had he gone to the academy?

01:26:36:72 01:26:38:84
Was he a football player?

01:26:39:40 01:26:40:88
I never knew who he was,

01:26:40:92 01:26:42:12
and I couldn't use that.

01:26:42:32 01:26:46:48
I was just playing me during those
lines and it sounds like it.

01:26:46:68 01:26:51:36
But some of the television shows,
I got into it more.

01:26:53:00 01:26:55:56
I had some potential.

01:26:56:80 01:26:58:16
Certainly I thought a lot more of them

01:26:58:36 01:27:02:52
then my friend Clint Eastwood.
That sounds funny to say that.

01:27:02:72 01:27:05:88
But I almost now when I hear oh,

01:27:06:80 01:27:09:64
what a great actor Clint is,
or they almost go, Yeah.

01:27:09:84 01:27:10:56
He's not.

01:27:10:76 01:27:15:52
And I had plenty of friends who were good
actors like David Janssen, James Garner,

01:27:15:72 01:27:21:80
I think is just a superb actor and he
hasn't failed in forty five years.

01:27:22:12 01:27:25:00
Clint is still not an actor,

01:27:25:20 01:27:29:28
but he looks good, and he says
his lines well.

01:27:29:48 01:27:33:28
This is not a condemnation
of Clint Eastwood.

01:27:33:48 01:27:37:36
So did you have other Hollywood
friends that you keep up with?

01:27:38:16 01:27:41:12
The last one was Bob Donner,

01:27:41:32 01:27:45:80
and he died about three weeks ago.

01:27:47:80 01:27:53:24
I didn't know these things like
that would strike me as profound

01:27:53:44 01:27:58:48
because that's part of me,
is dying too. And of all this,

01:27:58:67 01:28:01:48
you know, back stuff,
and maybe this is the end, but it isn't.

01:28:01:68 01:28:03:16
I know it isn't.

01:28:03:24 01:28:04:60
That's one of the nice things about your

01:28:04:80 01:28:09:16
performances on movie and television that
you will live on in your performances

01:28:09:32 01:28:11:72
and people still get
enjoyment from watching you.

01:28:11:72 01:28:12:80
Yeah,

01:28:12:28 01:28:16:48
but I wish they could find
some of that stuff and use it.

01:28:16:68 01:28:18:28
The Restless Gun

01:28:18:48 01:28:20:92
one was called Johnny Hawk.

01:28:21:12 01:28:22:52
Real good stuff.

01:28:22:72 01:28:26:76
And did you say you saw that or
she saw - some gal saw this,

01:28:26:96 01:28:32:40
the thing with ZaSu Pitts?
And Gale Storm?

01:28:32:96 01:28:34:84
You? Well what,
what -

01:28:34:84 01:28:36:20
I don't remember much about her.

01:28:36:40 01:28:42:32
I remember some sort of a foppish guy in a
tuxedo or something on a cruise.

01:28:42:52 01:28:47:80
Well, you performed in a TV
serial called My Little Margie.

01:28:47:28 01:28:47:96
Yeah.

01:28:48:16 01:28:50:80
And there was also one
called the Gail Storm Show.

01:28:51:00 01:28:54:32
Yeah.
And this was on television

01:28:54:52 01:28:56:36
basically in the 50s.
Yeah.

01:28:56:56 01:28:59:84
When we had only three
major television stations.

01:28:59:84 01:29:02:44
Yeah.
ABC, NBC, and CBS.

01:29:02:64 01:29:05:84
Yeah.
So it was family oriented.

01:29:06:40 01:29:11:40
It continued on in reruns for years.
Right.

01:29:11:24 01:29:13:92
Well,
it wasn't - I was still doing

01:29:14:12 01:29:20:24
South Pacific and my agent said, "You want
a three days work or something like that?"

01:29:20:44 01:29:23:36
And I said, "Yeah,
what are they gonna pay?"

01:29:23:56 01:29:25:36
And I said, "Sure."

01:29:26:12 01:29:28:12
But I don't remember that -

01:29:28:32 01:29:29:84
the thing.

01:29:30:40 01:29:32:20
Well, nowadays with the Internet --

01:29:32:40 01:29:37:00
I saw Gale Storm in Charlotte
a few years ago.

01:29:37:20 01:29:39:16
She remembers it.
Oh, yes.

01:29:39:36 01:29:41:56
I don't know how they do that.

01:29:41:84 01:29:43:28
Well, maybe you make a more memorable

01:29:43:28 01:29:45:24
impression on people than
you give yourself credit for.

01:29:45:44 01:29:47:12
I was so bad.

01:29:57:80 01:30:01:16
Well, you became enthralled
with the islands. Yes.

01:30:01:36 01:30:03:96
And after your career was sort of winding

01:30:04:16 01:30:08:36
down, you decided to not come
back to Charlotte so -- crashing down.

01:30:08:56 01:30:13:88
Tell us about what you decided to do
after your career in the movies ended.

01:30:14:80 01:30:15:76
To be serious

01:30:16:00 01:30:18:72
as they were going to blow up the world.

01:30:18:92 01:30:20:12
Cuba.

01:30:20:44 01:30:22:24
And I had this terrible,

01:30:22:44 01:30:27:28
claustrophobic feeling that I'm gonna get
the hell out of here before they do it.

01:30:27:48 01:30:30:80
I'm going to the South Pacific.

01:30:30:28 01:30:33:48
And I known a girl,

01:30:33:68 01:30:35:00
Nga-

01:30:35:64 01:30:37:80
he-

01:30:37:88 01:30:42:48
Nga West. Ngatokoruaimatauaia
was her name.

01:30:43:40 01:30:44:64
Anyway,

01:30:45:84 01:30:49:56
she was Adam West's then wife,

01:30:49:76 01:30:53:56
later my girlfriend, when they divorced.

01:30:53:76 01:30:55:68
And it was all this about the divorce,

01:30:55:70 01:30:57:60
the children and it went back and forth

01:30:57:80 01:31:02:44
and she was going back and so forth,
and I was enamored.

01:31:02:64 01:31:10:12
She grew up in the Cook Islands and her
father was a writer, Robert Dean Frisbie.

01:31:10:32 01:31:16:80
She told me about growing up in her
Tahitian mother, a Polynesian mother,

01:31:16:28 01:31:20:88
and then with my South Pacific
background and

01:31:21:80 01:31:24:36
on Figure Eight Island

01:31:24:56 01:31:29:44
with the native girl there.
The native girl was my daughter

01:31:29:64 01:31:32:32
this time, for real.

01:31:32:52 01:31:38:68
And so all this had been
going over in my mind anyway,

01:31:38:88 01:31:40:16
and so I went.

01:31:40:36 01:31:44:28
You know, that was just illustrating
how enamored I was or read

01:31:44:48 01:31:46:32
John Hall movies, Dorothy-

01:31:46:52 01:31:52:40
Dorothy Lamour, Hurricane and
South Pacific was the place for me.

01:31:52:60 01:31:53:92
Michener.

01:31:55:24 01:32:01:96
So I took off for the South Pacific
and with our idea of

01:32:02:40 01:32:05:48
shooting pictures and

01:32:06:40 01:32:07:64
camera

01:32:08:40 01:32:09:72
and some paint brushes.

01:32:09:92 01:32:15:44
Latter day Gaugin. See once
again - absolute fantasy about life.

01:32:15:64 01:32:18:32
And then I met Annie [?]

01:32:18:52 01:32:20:64
and she was Tahitian,

01:32:20:84 01:32:22:60
and she

01:32:22:92 01:32:26:40
looked good and looked good at me.

01:32:26:24 01:32:30:84
And I said, "Gee, there's
my Tahitian girl."

01:32:31:24 01:32:35:00
Now this sounds very vain,
but it was the - she spoke Tahitian,

01:32:35:20 01:32:39:64
she spoke French, she spoke English,
and she was very attractive.

01:32:39:84 01:32:45:24
So I said, well, I'll just latch onto
her and we'll have a family in Tahiti.

01:32:46:40 01:32:52:36
And before I could do that,
her boyfriend came back from France

01:32:52:72 01:32:53:32
and,

01:32:53:52 01:33:00:52
and she was carrying our child,
which is Suzanne, the girl now.

01:33:00:92 01:33:03:72
And the irony of this and my treatment

01:33:03:92 01:33:09:92
of it is Suzanne, the daughter
and her husband, Paul,

01:33:10:12 01:33:11:52
the American,

01:33:11:72 01:33:14:16
and the little boy Maui - Maui,

01:33:14:36 01:33:19:64
are living the dream that Annie and I
thought we were gonna have together.

01:33:20:96 01:33:22:48
And I

01:33:22:68 01:33:23:76
I

01:33:23:96 01:33:26:32
don't want to dwell on that too much,

01:33:26:52 01:33:27:84
but that was myself.

01:33:28:40 01:33:30:96
She's experienced and I
still think about it.

01:33:31:16 01:33:34:32
I want to go down there and see them,

01:33:34:52 01:33:38:88
but I find myself more than
see them is see Tahiti again.

01:33:39:80 01:33:43:40
The last time I was there was
10 years ago for her wedding.

01:33:43:60 01:33:46:68
But that still
goes over and over in my mind.

01:33:46:70 01:33:48:80
I can't do it.
I can't do it.

01:33:48:28 01:33:51:40
I'm just not going to do that.

01:33:52:16 01:33:55:48
But I probably will.
And you probably should.

01:33:55:48 01:33:56:72
You have a grandchild -
Yeah - that lives there -

01:33:56:92 01:33:59:52
cute little boy -

01:33:59:72 01:34:02:60
that would benefit from
getting to see his grandfather.

01:34:02:80 01:34:07:16
Yeah.
Say "Who dat man?"

01:34:16:32 01:34:20:88
So at some point, you decided to return
to Charlotte and give up the palm trees

01:34:21:80 01:34:25:48
and the wind -
And get into reality - get into reality.

01:34:25:68 01:34:28:44
And what made you pick Charlotte?

01:34:28:64 01:34:29:64
My hometown.

01:34:29:64 01:34:31:80
So you thought your family
and friends would be here?

01:34:32:00 01:34:33:76
I wanted to see my dad more,

01:34:33:96 01:34:36:00
I wanted to see my mom.

01:34:36:20 01:34:39:24
And they were getting older and I knew it

01:34:39:44 01:34:42:28
and I just didn't -

01:34:42:48 01:34:47:00
they needed me as much
as I needed them then.

01:34:47:20 01:34:51:48
And when I came back, it was like
a wonderland to me.

01:34:51:68 01:34:55:80
I was going finding myself getting
together with guys and we were

01:34:56:00 01:34:59:88
going up in the mountains and packing
on the Appalachian Trail.

01:34:59:98 01:35:02:80
And these -
half of those guys are gone now.

01:35:02:28 01:35:05:40
All of them are gone except a couple.

01:35:05:24 01:35:06:40
And

01:35:07:80 01:35:11:40
we were all about the same age in our 40s.
And it was the latter -

01:35:11:60 01:35:14:40
it was the what's the thing?

01:35:14:24 01:35:15:76
Deliverance.

01:35:16:52 01:35:18:40
We were like Deliverance.

01:35:18:60 01:35:23:60
And I was the Burt - Burt Reynolds part.
Took my bow along and  - didn't know

01:35:23:80 01:35:27:40
they were gonna make
a movie like that, you know.

01:35:27:24 01:35:28:36
But,

01:35:29:52 01:35:34:80
so I was just I was astounded
at how much I love North Carolina.

01:35:35:00 01:35:37:36
And I took hundreds and thousands,

01:35:37:56 01:35:41:40
it seems to me, of color
transparencies of it.

01:35:41:40 01:35:43:00
And we'll have some of the stuff printed.

01:35:43:20 01:35:46:32
Sometimes houses that I loved are gone.

01:35:46:52 01:35:47:52
Oh, and houses,

01:35:47:72 01:35:51:92
just old shacks,
you know, Piney Woods stuff.

01:35:52:12 01:35:57:76
Made a quite a history of it, not knowing
that I was doing it for that purpose.

01:35:58:52 01:36:03:24
Where's your collection of negatives
and photographs? In big boxes.

01:36:03:44 01:36:06:24
And that's what's
closing me out of where I live.

01:36:06:44 01:36:13:68
My, my living area's about this big,
not this high, but this big,

01:36:13:88 01:36:16:60
and I've run out of shelf - shelving.

01:36:16:80 01:36:19:36
I've got things in boxes up.

01:36:19:45 01:36:21:40
I was lucky to have found these things.

01:36:21:60 01:36:25:00
So I'm being enclosed.

01:36:25:32 01:36:28:12
It sounds like you've had
a very prolific career.

01:36:28:12 01:36:29:64
Can you tell us a little bit about your

01:36:29:64 01:36:32:12
photography business that you
had here in Charlotte?

01:36:32:32 01:36:38:56
The types of, um, business clients that
you had, your medium that you preferred?

01:36:38:76 01:36:39:84
Right.

01:36:40:40 01:36:41:64
Good question.

01:36:41:84 01:36:43:00
I -

01:36:43:20 01:36:49:12
along the way, I'd always been taking
photographs since I was 10 years old.

01:36:49:64 01:36:53:88
And I'd always, - hunting trips,
always that sort of thing.

01:36:54:80 01:36:59:32
Never athletics,
hunting trips in the woods and so forth,

01:36:59:56 01:37:00:72
duck hunting.

01:37:00:92 01:37:03:92
And I'd compose pictures, you know,

01:37:04:12 01:37:09:24
box of shells -  shotgun shells,
shotgun, a goose, decoys.

01:37:09:44 01:37:14:56
So I was a little guy at 12 years old
knowing that I wanted to do that.

01:37:14:76 01:37:17:76
I wanted to be an illustrator.

01:37:18:12 01:37:21:72
I saw that I was a- above average,

01:37:21:92 01:37:27:12
had a good eye and knew nothing about
photography as such.

01:37:27:15 01:37:27:80
I really didn't.

01:37:28:00 01:37:32:16
My friends say, "Oh, yes, you did,
but you just don't admit it."

01:37:32:25 01:37:33:60
I said, "No, I really don't."

01:37:33:80 01:37:35:68
And, and

01:37:36:20 01:37:39:20
they get a kick out of the things
I said. "Well, what's an F-stop?"

01:37:39:40 01:37:42:24
You know, "You don't know that?!"
"Of course not. Why do

01:37:42:24 01:37:43:80
I know that?
Why should I know that?

01:37:43:87 01:37:45:32
What difference does it make?

01:37:45:52 01:37:47:79
What F-stop..." you know.

01:37:47:99 01:37:48:88
Ha ha ha.

01:37:49:80 01:37:50:92
I go to a

01:37:51:84 01:37:54:96
Thursday meeting
last Thursday of every month called

01:37:55:16 01:37:56:16
the Elwood P.

01:37:56:36 01:37:58:40
Dowd Society.

01:37:58:60 01:38:01:32
There artists like Gene Payne,

01:38:01:52 01:38:06:56
and photographers Phil Aull and
et cetera, et cetera,

01:38:06:76 01:38:11:52
and we talk about painting and drawing
and photography and movies.

01:38:11:72 01:38:14:80
Movie buffs all over the place.

01:38:15:00 01:38:17:72
So I found that

01:38:17:92 01:38:20:24
I was gonna say little known to me,

01:38:20:44 01:38:29:80
but I was always interested in my own
perception of being a kid, a child, wonderment.

01:38:30:00 01:38:36:68
And I put children and those
subtly in those situations, you know,

01:38:36:88 01:38:40:48
catching a turtle and showing it
to their baby sister or something,

01:38:40:68 01:38:43:12
and those were my pictures.

01:38:43:32 01:38:46:32
And then the families, the same way
didn't dress them up.

01:38:46:52 01:38:48:64
Just come as you are.

01:38:48:84 01:38:51:20
And if they had anything

01:38:51:40 01:38:55:68
dealing with formality, I'd make them
take that off and put something else on.

01:38:55:88 01:39:02:40
So that became - became to be that I was -
people were calling me all over

01:39:02:60 01:39:07:28
this part of the country, Florida
to Grosse Pointe Shores and

01:39:07:48 01:39:11:40
up in Michigan.

01:39:11:24 01:39:12:52
And

01:39:13:80 01:39:16:12
I could have pushed it
further and further,

01:39:16:32 01:39:19:52
and I didn't. I didn't want to.

01:39:19:72 01:39:24:56
I got married to a gal
from Queens College.

01:39:25:80 01:39:26:68
She was

01:39:26:88 01:39:30:32
smart and bright and delightful and

01:39:30:52 01:39:32:44
too - too young.

01:39:32:88 01:39:37:00
And I suddenly realized what I had done.

01:39:37:92 01:39:41:72
And then she let me
know in full force that

01:39:41:92 01:39:43:16
I was too old for her.

01:39:43:36 01:39:46:48
She wanted to get with her friends.

01:39:46:48 01:39:47:72
And I said, well, let's go,

01:39:47:92 01:39:49:84
you know, I'll keep up with them.

01:39:50:40 01:39:52:32
Then it became a question of my age.

01:39:52:52 01:39:54:40
I was then

01:39:54:40 01:39:57:12
fifty-two or three or something like that.

01:39:57:32 01:39:59:36
And she was twenty-three.

01:39:59:56 01:40:01:12
Didn't seem,

01:40:02:60 01:40:04:52
you know, out of line to me.

01:40:04:72 01:40:07:32
But then it was. She was very attractive

01:40:07:52 01:40:14:72
and very good with clients
and she took over the small photography

01:40:15:36 01:40:19:56
consortium or whatever it was, and-

01:40:19:76 01:40:23:12
and it was, we had a good income from it.

01:40:23:32 01:40:26:20
Lived over on one of those
apartments over on

01:40:26:40 01:40:28:56
Hermitage Court. Still there.

01:40:28:76 01:40:29:92
And

01:40:31:20 01:40:33:36
I knew that I didn't want to go much

01:40:33:56 01:40:37:00
further than that.
But when we were divorced,

01:40:37:20 01:40:40:12
I got a place at the villa and tried to be

01:40:40:32 01:40:47:76
a real photographer and it didn't work
at all. Stayed at it about three years,

01:40:48:72 01:40:52:60
put about thirty thousand
dollars in the business.

01:40:53:88 01:40:58:00
And I knew it was gonna fail,
but I knew I had to make the attempt,

01:40:58:20 01:40:59:20
and I did.

01:40:59:40 01:41:03:16
And then I started
shooting again freelance.

01:41:03:36 01:41:04:32
And

01:41:05:28 01:41:07:44
I could have pushed it further,
but I just wasn't,

01:41:07:64 01:41:09:68
I'm just not that type.

01:41:10:48 01:41:12:80
Will o' the wisp.

01:41:19:32 01:41:22:20
You have also made a name for yourself now

01:41:22:40 01:41:26:32
with Senior Olympics
and the North Carolina Hall of Fame.

01:41:26:52 01:41:30:96
Could you tell us a little bit about
your latest achievements?

01:41:31:16 01:41:38:12
Well, the latest there's the - certainly
the seniors had - was a - was a

01:41:38:32 01:41:41:32
addition to my life that I
hadn't ever anticipated.

01:41:41:52 01:41:44:76
I never dreamed that I would be

01:41:45:36 01:41:47:16
going out there and high jumping and long

01:41:47:36 01:41:52:40
jumping and throwing the javelin,
running the hurdles and all those things

01:41:52:24 01:41:57:36
at the age of - what was I,
fifty-three or something like that.

01:41:57:56 01:42:02:40
I went to the World Games at
fifty-three and

01:42:02:60 01:42:06:72
placed third in the pentathlon,
won the javelin and so forth.

01:42:06:92 01:42:09:80
And it's the same scenario again.

01:42:10:00 01:42:12:60
And I was in great shape

01:42:12:80 01:42:15:32
and I knew that that wasn't real,

01:42:15:52 01:42:18:68
but I was doing it and I was succeeding.

01:42:18:88 01:42:24:88
And I was finding the time to do it and I
wasn't necessarily neglecting anything.

01:42:25:60 01:42:30:24
And so that lasted until I was in my 70s.

01:42:30:44 01:42:32:20
And I set

01:42:32:40 01:42:38:52
an American record in the javelin
for the age group Thrill Me to Death,

01:42:39:80 01:42:41:88
placed behind Wilbur Thompson,

01:42:42:80 01:42:45:36
who was the Olympic champion
in the games that I was in.

01:42:45:56 01:42:48:36
He threw 58 feet in those games.

01:42:48:56 01:42:50:20
I threw 44 feet,

01:42:50:40 01:42:52:16
the same shot.

01:42:53:28 01:42:57:16
And here I am placing second
behind him within inches.

01:42:57:36 01:43:00:24
That was a big coup for me.

01:43:00:24 01:43:01:64
You haven't lost your touch.

01:43:01:84 01:43:04:24
No, but it gave me a reprieve.

01:43:04:44 01:43:06:12
But then it started,

01:43:06:32 01:43:07:56
it started going bad.

01:43:07:76 01:43:08:96
It started,

01:43:09:16 01:43:11:96
things started going wrong.

01:43:12:16 01:43:13:96
And I had a

01:43:14:40 01:43:16:20
heart attack.

01:43:16:40 01:43:19:56
And that's just the words just
couldn't - I can't say them now

01:43:19:76 01:43:21:60
hardly.
It was a blocked artery.

01:43:21:80 01:43:23:92
Well, that's a heart attack.

01:43:24:12 01:43:27:64
And it hasn't bothered me since
they put a stent in there.

01:43:27:64 01:43:29:20
But that stent is still in there.

01:43:29:40 01:43:31:92
I didn't put it there,

01:43:32:80 01:43:33:88
and it wasn't - I wasn't born with it.

01:43:34:80 01:43:37:20
So that scares me sometimes.

01:43:37:40 01:43:39:44
And so there's a - there's a

01:43:39:64 01:43:44:56
I'm - I'm too happy spirited most
of the time to let things bother me.

01:43:44:76 01:43:48:36
But things are gnawing
at me a little bit now.

01:43:48:72 01:43:52:56
Well, other people have recognized your
talents, and you were inducted into the -

01:43:52:76 01:43:54:60
Oh yes! Right.
North Carolina Hall of Fame recently.

01:43:54:60 01:43:55:80
Yeah.

01:43:55:28 01:43:58:76
So can you tell our audience a little
bit about how that happened?

01:44:00:40 01:44:03:60
Well, once again, I'm poor mouthing it.

01:44:03:80 01:44:07:48
This was the first
Hall of Fame for Charlotte.

01:44:07:68 01:44:10:64
And I'm saying, oh,
gosh, here we go again

01:44:10:84 01:44:15:56
you know. The Hall of Fame
for North Carolina was

01:44:16:80 01:44:23:33
big time, you know, but that wasn't
impressed with that until Dan Owens -

01:44:23:53 01:44:25:80
You know Dan Owens?

01:44:25:28 01:44:28:84
Well, Dan Owens is a
kind of entrepreneurial guy,

01:44:29:40 01:44:32:80
and he was putting this Hall
of Fame together and he did it.

01:44:33:00 01:44:37:00
He got some backing and put it together,
and it was one -

01:44:37:20 01:44:40:44
it was a very Herald thing.

01:44:40:84 01:44:44:68
Er- Earhart- Earnhardt.

01:44:45:44 01:44:49:00
The basketball coach from U.N.C.C.

01:44:49:20 01:44:51:96
Jeff Wells, Jeff

01:44:52:16 01:44:53:48
Mullins

01:44:53:68 01:44:54:92
and

01:44:55:68 01:44:58:80
Jimmy -  Little Jimmy Beatty dot com,
as he calls himself.

01:44:59:00 01:45:00:28
And me.

01:45:00:52 01:45:02:00
Well,

01:45:02:20 01:45:05:80
I was still not impressed

01:45:05:28 01:45:08:76
until I saw that there were about 450

01:45:08:96 01:45:12:36
people sitting there
transfixed on what was going

01:45:12:56 01:45:20:44
on the program and seeing myself
up on a video they did of each person.

01:45:20:64 01:45:22:40
I was very impressed with it.

01:45:22:60 01:45:27:40
And then, in fact, when I got up
to receive my little whatever it was,

01:45:27:60 01:45:29:12
I said,

01:45:29:68 01:45:36:00
I said, "I'm not a professional speaker,
but I'm going to say what's on my mind."

01:45:36:20 01:45:38:20
And I got up and I said,

01:45:38:80 01:45:41:44
I got on the podium and looked around

01:45:41:64 01:45:42:96
and I'm saying,

01:45:43:16 01:45:49:20
look, "I know this is me here,
but was that me on the scan?"

01:45:49:40 01:45:52:40
They went through the whole scan of this

01:45:52:24 01:45:58:16
history of Chunk Simmons,
the history of Jimmy - Little Jimmy Beatty.

01:45:58:36 01:46:00:72
And I was very impressed,

01:46:01:80 01:46:03:24
very impressed where they put it together

01:46:03:44 01:46:06:80
and they had the music
and all that, you know.

01:46:06:28 01:46:10:12
So I said and besides that,

01:46:10:32 01:46:11:76
I should be proud.

01:46:11:96 01:46:15:52
This is my city and I'm
going to participate in it,

01:46:15:72 01:46:18:80
and I was very excited about it.
The next day, the

01:46:19:00 01:46:21:20
Observer didn't have anything
in it at all.

01:46:21:20 01:46:22:52
And for the next three weeks,

01:46:22:72 01:46:24:00
not a thing.

01:46:24:20 01:46:26:16
They had some sort of a barbecue or

01:46:26:36 01:46:29:80
something and they had
some pictures of some of them,

01:46:29:28 01:46:33:80
not the principals even,
but concerning the Hall of Fame.

01:46:33:28 01:46:38:80
And so when the next one came up or went
down to have a reunion,

01:46:38:28 01:46:44:24
it wasn't because of my not wanting
to be at the Second Hall of Fame.

01:46:44:44 01:46:47:52
And I was not

01:46:47:72 01:46:50:32
totally convinced it
was gonna work anyway.

01:46:50:52 01:46:51:92
This will be the last one.

01:46:52:12 01:46:55:56
So I went down to that
and they pulled that one off.

01:46:55:76 01:46:59:60
And then on the third one,
I went as a guest.

01:46:59:80 01:47:01:36
And it was

01:47:01:64 01:47:04:48
I was very impressed with
what they were doing.

01:47:04:68 01:47:08:40
And I'm saying they're doing a good job
and I'm proud to be part of it,

01:47:08:60 01:47:12:32
more proud than I am being
in the North Carolina one.

01:47:19:52 01:47:21:56
Well you've had a very active retirement.

01:47:21:76 01:47:24:76
What are some of the hobbies
and associations that you have?

01:47:24:76 01:47:25:76
You've already mentioned that you get

01:47:25:96 01:47:30:72
together once a month with some of your
fellow artists and photographers.

01:47:30:92 01:47:34:76
Yeah.
Are there other groups that you belong to?

01:47:35:48 01:47:38:80
Well, there's a fishing group,
that goes to Figure Eight Island

01:47:39:00 01:47:40:48
and that's okay.

01:47:40:72 01:47:42:16
But

01:47:42:40 01:47:45:36
I think the thing that really

01:47:45:56 01:47:48:64
has been a lifelong
thing since I was about

01:47:48:84 01:47:53:92
six, seven years ago
with my granddad, Alexander,

01:47:54:12 01:47:56:12
and he would take me out on these cotton

01:47:56:32 01:48:00:56
fields, out on the Catawba River,
along the river.

01:48:00:76 01:48:02:40
And

01:48:02:24 01:48:06:24
you could actually -
arrowheads were all over the place.

01:48:06:44 01:48:08:60
My Lord, what a - what an adventure.

01:48:08:80 01:48:12:96
Go with my grandfather
and for arrowheads and pick them up,

01:48:12:96 01:48:15:80
and there they were, and
I still have them.

01:48:15:28 01:48:16:40
I still have them!

01:48:16:60 01:48:18:64
And it's quite a collection.

01:48:18:84 01:48:21:28
And I continued to do it when I came back.

01:48:21:48 01:48:25:52
Then I started
making arrowheads and fleck- flaking

01:48:25:72 01:48:29:48
the stone and making arrows
and bows and that sort of thing.

01:48:29:68 01:48:32:24
And so I have my friend Louis Jones, up

01:48:32:44 01:48:37:64
in Ashboro -
a magnificent artist when he paints -

01:48:37:84 01:48:41:16
but he's, he's above all, he's a,

01:48:41:36 01:48:43:44
he's an artefactor.

01:48:43:64 01:48:47:24
And so, yes, artifacts,
we- and Oscar Penegar, and

01:48:47:44 01:48:51:00
Otto Haas and, and Parker Whedon.

01:48:51:20 01:48:52:64
But we're all on our last legs.

01:48:52:84 01:48:56:64
They can't move around
the woods anymore, nor can I.

01:48:56:84 01:48:58:96
Which was just -
absolutely -

01:48:59:12 01:49:00:92
I've referred to this several times -

01:49:01:12 01:49:03:52
it just dumbfounds me,

01:49:03:72 01:49:07:28
that I can't do these things anymore.
Well, why can't you?

01:49:07:48 01:49:09:88
What's so difficult about the woods?

01:49:10:80 01:49:15:44
I said, well, you can step on a rock
and slip or worse than that,

01:49:15:64 01:49:20:24
step on an acorn that's
on a rock and really slip

01:49:20:44 01:49:21:32
and fall.

01:49:21:52 01:49:27:92
And I've done it several times,
fallen in the water. Fell out of a canoe

01:49:28:28 01:49:32:20
by myself and couldn't get back in the
canoe because - it was shallow water,

01:49:32:40 01:49:35:92
but the rapids were so great I
couldn't get back in the canoe.

01:49:36:12 01:49:42:40
And it was October, some couple of years
ago, the first time that anything ever

01:49:42:28 01:49:46:16
impeded me that I was - thought
I could do that I couldn't.

01:49:46:36 01:49:53:20
I was just demoralized when I came back in
and Os- Parker Whedon's cabin down there.

01:49:53:40 01:49:55:24
And Virginia, his wife, was there.

01:49:55:24 01:49:56:48
They said, "Where have you been?"

01:49:56:48 01:49:58:52
I said, "I've been out there
trying to get on my feet."

01:49:58:72 01:50:00:32
"Well, why didn't you call?"

01:50:00:52 01:50:02:56
I said, "I wasn't gonna do that."

01:50:02:56 01:50:03:72
I pulled the canoe back -

01:50:03:92 01:50:08:12
I finally got on my feet and pulled
the canoe through the rapids, back up this

01:50:08:32 01:50:14:80
water that I could walk in and then
walked on over here up to my waist and -

01:50:14:28 01:50:18:80
and let's get this fire going because
I'm gonna die unless I get warmed up.

01:50:19:00 01:50:22:80
So I'm saying, what am I,
crazy or something, you know?

01:50:23:00 01:50:27:68
And to be so disappointed in something
but never done that anymore.

01:50:27:88 01:50:29:00
Never do it again.

01:50:29:20 01:50:30:64
Know better.

01:50:30:84 01:50:36:80
I probably will never
do the Senior Olympics again.

01:50:37:00 01:50:39:32
Just can't do that.

01:50:39:52 01:50:41:68
And these are things that you lose,

01:50:41:88 01:50:46:64
but I haven't lost the ability to take
pictures and to paint. Maybe painting,

01:50:46:84 01:50:50:56
I think I'm better than I am
because I can't handle a brush,

01:50:50:76 01:50:55:44
can't even sign my name to the thing.

01:50:56:44 01:50:59:64
Well, it sounds like from the rest of your
life, though, every time there's been

01:50:59:84 01:51:05:40
a direction that is the normal direction,
which should be maybe at your stage

01:51:05:60 01:51:09:48
in life to kind of sit around and visit
with your friends and take it easy,

01:51:09:68 01:51:13:24
that you'll just find another way
to divert your interest into something

01:51:13:44 01:51:17:52
that's meaningful,
possibly profitable for you.

01:51:17:52 01:51:20:56
And so maybe writing and getting back
to your drawing and of course doing your

01:51:20:64 01:51:22:84
photography, are going to be
good answers.

01:51:22:84 01:51:26:20
But I wouldn't put it past you to come
up with something totally different.

01:51:26:40 01:51:29:80
Oh, no -
That we haven't even thought of today.

01:51:29:80 01:51:31:80
Do you have any advice or wisdom from your

01:51:31:28 01:51:34:56
lifetime of experience
to give our listeners?

01:51:34:76 01:51:42:68
Oh well I have to give the - the practically
epitaph that my father gave me.

01:51:42:88 01:51:48:32
I said, "Dad, if you had to do it all
over again, would you do it differently?"

01:51:48:52 01:51:51:72
He said, "You bet I would."

01:51:51:72 01:51:54:00
I thought I was going
to get this wonderful word -

01:51:54:20 01:51:55:40
words of wisdom.

01:51:55:60 01:51:56:96
I said, "What's that, Dad?"

01:51:57:16 01:52:00:52
He said, "I wouldn't have
taken it so damn seriously."

01:52:02:40 01:52:04:80
And that's the way, you know,

01:52:04:28 01:52:09:40
I don't know what that means exactly,
but I've been struck by him saying that

01:52:09:60 01:52:10:92
because

01:52:11:64 01:52:16:16
he did a lot of great things
for himself and pleasurable things,

01:52:16:16 01:52:18:80
and if you don't take it seriously,
how are you gonna do it?

01:52:18:97 01:52:20:32
You know, how do you do it?

01:52:20:52 01:52:23:92
You know, you have to have feelings.

01:52:24:12 01:52:28:76
Well, he may have been a little bit
envious of your sort of a freestyle life

01:52:28:96 01:52:34:48
where you got to go do big things
and important things and enjoy them,

01:52:34:50 01:52:36:40
and he stayed here and ran a business.

01:52:36:60 01:52:39:20
And I have that,

01:52:40:28 01:52:44:40
I have well, my true friends

01:52:44:24 01:52:46:48
don't, don't feel that.

01:52:46:68 01:52:50:68
But some people are just marginal friends.

01:52:50:88 01:52:54:92
They're actually - I can sense it
and see that over a period of time.

01:52:55:12 01:52:57:40
They don't want to hear about you jumping

01:52:57:24 01:53:01:00
and running and doing things
and going places at 80 or so.

01:53:01:20 01:53:03:12
You know, they don't
want to hear about it.

01:53:03:32 01:53:04:80
So there is a

01:53:05:36 01:53:09:12
jealousy there - not a jealousy or envy.

01:53:09:32 01:53:13:56
I know where he's going with this
and I can't - my friend Walter Hook

01:53:14:00 01:53:18:80
to not to be that pacific,
but I mention his name -

01:53:18:14 01:53:20:84
I tell him of these things
that we used to do together

01:53:21:40 01:53:25:56
that he can't do now
because he's where I am now.

01:53:28:80 01:53:29:56
He can't walk.

01:53:29:76 01:53:32:80
He can't move anymore.
And he goes to the Y,

01:53:32:28 01:53:34:48
and he goes through the motions.

01:53:34:68 01:53:38:80
But he's - he's envious of my mobility.

01:53:39:00 01:53:42:36
And so I don't - I don't
talk about it anymore.

01:53:42:64 01:53:44:44
I don't share that yet

01:53:44:64 01:53:47:24
I've got another guy, a buddy
up in the mountains,

01:53:47:44 01:53:50:56
we talk incessantly about things.

01:53:51:16 01:53:56:72
One of my friend's husbands told
me that when men are young,

01:53:57:80 01:53:59:76
what's important is their career,

01:53:59:96 01:54:02:84
their spouse, their children, their job,

01:54:03:40 01:54:07:00
climbing the corporate ladder,
or making some success,

01:54:07:20 01:54:11:80
but as you grow older, what makes you
great is how you take your losses.

01:54:12:00 01:54:14:16
Right.
That is true.

01:54:14:24 01:54:16:24
And I think what you're really saying is

01:54:16:30 01:54:20:20
that as you've gone through your life
and you're looking at all these different

01:54:20:40 01:54:23:16
options that you've had,
you've seized the moment,

01:54:23:36 01:54:28:20
made some courageous decisions,
not gone on any particular

01:54:28:40 01:54:33:00
steady track, but taken some chances that
have gotten you some fame and fortune,

01:54:33:20 01:54:38:84
and now you're able to look back on your
life and enjoy friends from far places.

01:54:39:40 01:54:41:12
Awards that you can hang on your wall,

01:54:41:32 01:54:45:00
boxes of photographs
and negatives that you can enjoy,

01:54:45:20 01:54:50:80
and you can still get around and enjoy
your friends and your family,

01:54:51:00 01:54:54:52
but there's -
Reading is a big part of my life

01:54:54:72 01:54:57:24
now, I read everything

01:54:57:44 01:54:58:56
and -

01:54:58:96 01:55:00:32
I say everything -

01:55:00:52 01:55:02:56
I read mostly

01:55:03:28 01:55:07:36
adventure, not novels, but,

01:55:07:68 01:55:09:16
you know,

01:55:09:60 01:55:13:56
National Geographic and the wonderful
stories, National- about things,

01:55:13:76 01:55:16:72
see all of the NOVA shows,

01:55:16:92 01:55:21:56
I'm just - I marvel and
amazed that. I never stop.

01:55:21:76 01:55:26:56
But the problem with that now,
I can't remember what I saw.

01:55:27:80 01:55:30:32
I really can't remember.
"What'd you see?"

01:55:30:52 01:55:32:56
"I saw this great thing on Nova."

01:55:32:76 01:55:34:28
"What was it about?"

01:55:34:48 01:55:36:12
"I don't remember."

01:55:36:32 01:55:38:36
So it must be fleeting, you know,

01:55:38:56 01:55:40:28
it comes in then goes out.

01:55:40:76 01:55:43:24
Was there anything else
you'd like to tell us?

01:55:43:44 01:55:45:32
Well, I just want to say that

01:55:45:52 01:55:49:24
I've enjoyed this far more than I
would have dreamed of.

01:55:49:44 01:55:53:60
You know, I was kind of looking forward
to being here, but not sensationally.

01:55:53:80 01:55:56:00
I wondered how we were going
to pull this off,

01:55:56:00 01:55:59:52
and then we've got this guy over there
with his camera and his earphones.

01:55:59:72 01:56:03:20
He's been listening to everything
we're saying, you know?

01:56:03:40 01:56:07:96
And you're all so patient with me,
and I appreciate every bit of it.

01:56:08:70 01:56:12:12
For those of you who would like to read a
brief excerpt about your military career,

01:56:12:32 01:56:14:44
you can get a copy World War II: Hometown

01:56:14:54 01:56:16:64
and Home Front Heroes,
edited by Margaret G.

01:56:16:84 01:56:19:36
Bigger.
U.N.C. Charlotte and our local

01:56:19:56 01:56:24:40
station, WTVI has also taped an interview
about your life that is available.

01:56:24:40 01:56:26:36
Thank you for sharing
your stories with us.

01:56:26:56 01:56:29:24
You are truly a Renaissance
man and an inspiration.

01:56:29:44 01:56:30:76
This is Jane Johnson.

01:56:30:76 01:56:34:44
I'm a librarian with the Carolina Room, Public
Library of Charlotte Mecklenburg County.

01:56:34:44 01:56:35:52
Thank you for watching.

01:56:35:52 01:56:36:56
You're very good Jane.

<end subtitles>