@ Subtitles generated with Happy Scribe

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00:00:00:24 00:00:01:88
I'm Hattie Vines and I'm a member

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of the reference staff upstairs in
the Medical Center Library.

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Today we have a very special guest,

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Dr. Charles Johnson.

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And since I've been informed to make
this really brief, he is, above all,

00:00:15:96 00:00:19:32
Duke's first Black professor.

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He's a native of Alabama
and he received his B.S. degree

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at Howard University
and Howard University College of Medicine

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for the M.D. degree.
Internship at D.C. General,

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came to Duke as a fellow in endocrinology
in the Department of Medicine.

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He was appointed assistant professor in 1970,
making him Duke's first Black professor

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in the Department of Medicine.

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Highlights from his career include, among

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other things,
he is noted for his commitment

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to attracting and mentoring
minority students.

00:01:02:32 00:01:04:44
He's been invited to the White House.

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He's testified before special committees
in the Senate and in the House.

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He was invited as a member

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for the forty-fourth

00:01:16:52 00:01:20:60
World Health Assembly by
then president - sorry -

00:01:20:92 00:01:25:80
Secretary Louis Sullivan,
Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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He was past president
of the Old North State Medical Society,

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and he was also president
of the National Medical Society,

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which is the counterpart
to the then segregated AMA.

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He is married and has two children.

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Short enough Derek?
Thank you.

00:01:48:31 00:01:50:40
Dr. Johnson.

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[Applause]

00:01:54:92 00:02:00:24
- Good evening, everyone, and thank you
very much Hattie for that generous introduction.

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And I would say to you right off,
in the words of

00:02:02:44 00:02:05:96
Dr. Martin Luther King,
that no man in his past

00:02:06:16 00:02:10:70
history has ever refused accolades,
whether deserved or not.

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[Laughter]

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And I certainly don't want to break
the record by refusing them

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so I'll say thank you for that.

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I didn't know particularly what you all
might be interested in as an audience

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about someone who is probably passé, as
someone as an old fogie like myself,

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so I thought I'd begin somewhat in the
middle of things, in media

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res, what it was labeled when I was a

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fledgling freshman at Howard
undergraduate school,

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beginning in the middle of things instead
of the end in terms of how did you get

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to where you are by starting with
something that led to tell you a little bit about it.

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Let me tell you a

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little bit about my family first.

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I guess you'll know something about that.

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My parents were two hard working
folks in the state of Alabama.

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Everybody was very poor from

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where we came.
Nobody was wealthy.

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And I like to qualify by saying
that because people get "poor" and "poverty"

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mixed up when they think of it,
and they are never the same.

00:03:03:88 00:03:06:48
Poverty is a state of mind.

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I can be poor, but as well off
as anybody else in existence.

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And I want to say that because
I do think somebody needs to keep saying it.

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The Reverend Jesse Jackson
keeps referring to this often,

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if you get a chance to listen
to him very much,

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he'll keep mentioning that.

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But there are a lot of folks because - we
get displayed so often as being all

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of these stricken, poverty, whatever
you want to talk about - which is true,

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so we're not going to deny that -

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but then on the other side of the coin,

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there are more - a majority of folks
who are poorer than we are.

00:03:36:36 00:03:38:16
So I don't want you all to get
things mixed up in term.

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And when you hear me talking,
I would hate to have anyone think

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that whatever I was saying necessarily
applied to any one particular group.

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People hear what they want to hear,

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whatever somebody else says, depending on
the context in which they were listening.

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So I had to be careful that I was always

00:03:53:16 00:03:56:72
speaking globally,
albeit I was acting locally.

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So I never intended anyone to go away

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thinking that my statements
were so focused and narrow

00:04:03:56 00:04:06:24
as to only include one subset

00:04:06:44 00:04:09:96
of all those who exist
in the universe in which we live.

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Everything every man and woman does
on this earth in some way affects

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everything, every other man or woman
does, wherever they are.

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And however inconsiderate and inconsistent
we might be in not thinking so,

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it does make a difference.

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And therefore, who made the statement
that "there is nothing human [laughter]

00:04:27:56 00:04:32:12
that does not relate to me" is a true
statement for all of us, not just me.

00:04:32:20 00:04:34:00
So my parents were hardworking folks

00:04:34:20 00:04:37:36
who really eked out an existence
like everyone else did.

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Everyone was poor, despair,
hoping that they'd have a better life.

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They finished, what,

00:04:41:60 00:04:45:00
the fifth or sixth grade
in Alabama school system,

00:04:45:20 00:04:49:60
but had hopes that their children
all would get an education

00:04:49:88 00:04:52:12
in order to better themselves.

00:04:52:32 00:04:56:40
I used to wonder why that was so, and I
looked at them myself when I was very small.

00:04:56:57 00:05:00:72
And you have to remember when I
grew up in an era, kids could not talk.

00:05:01:00 00:05:02:32
They could only listen unless they were

00:05:02:52 00:05:05:20
spoken to. Parents didn't permit
their kids to talk.

00:05:05:20 00:05:07:80
So when everyone running around
thinking all this

00:05:07:28 00:05:11:68
freedom you see people with now they
had when I grew up - not a possibility.

00:05:11:88 00:05:16:60
Discipline was strictly
enforced at home and away.

00:05:16:61 00:05:17:76
So the African proverb

00:05:17:76 00:05:19:32
that it takes a village
to grow up a child -

00:05:19:32 00:05:22:67
that's absolutely true.
Nowhere I went in my village,

00:05:22:68 00:05:25:84
in my little town, to any adult
who ever said anything to me,

00:05:26:40 00:05:29:92
it was the same as if my parents had
said it. And I obeyed it.

00:05:29:92 00:05:31:40
So when you see me doing
all these things,

00:05:31:40 00:05:33:44
you imagining, say "I wonder how
could he do all these things?"

00:05:33:44 00:05:35:40
Well, that was why I could do them.

00:05:35:40 00:05:37:76
I had the discipline
from where it should have been, at home,

00:05:37:96 00:05:43:80
at the very beginning, so I could live
with others without it being a problem.

00:05:43:72 00:05:45:68
Then off to school. I
did go to school.

00:05:45:88 00:05:48:40
Well, in my little state,
in my little town,

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we shared an elementary
school and a church.

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And sombody always wondering about they
need all these fine buildings to learn.

00:05:55:88 00:05:59:64
Well, it's nice to have them,
but you don't need them.

00:05:59:72 00:06:01:52
So when kids come to tell me about how

00:06:01:52 00:06:03:99
tough life is and they can't study,
including my own,

00:06:04:19 00:06:05:44
I always laugh and say to them,

00:06:05:64 00:06:08:20
you have to go tell someone else
because it's all a joke.

00:06:08:40 00:06:11:00
If I can study in a church

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and a school sometime, somehow I made it.

00:06:13:92 00:06:14:96
It didn't seem to hurt me.

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I don't understand why they want
to tell me it's such a difficulty.

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I can't go to this air conditioned
building with all these beautiful

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screens and numbers, computers
and everything else around.

00:06:24:64 00:06:26:32
No, you don't need all of that.

00:06:26:52 00:06:29:16
They're good to have.
They - it - they are

00:06:29:29 00:06:31:40
in addition to extend my knowledge

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but they were never necessary.
Schools that I attended

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strictly

00:06:36:68 00:06:41:80
spent their time only three hours,
no longer heard in my lifetime.

00:06:41:36 00:06:44:56
Reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.
Did not say "arithmetic"

00:06:44:76 00:06:46:24
they said "'rithmetic."

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But it meant you had
to learn how to count,

00:06:48:68 00:06:51:20
even it wasn't spelled correctly.

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[Laughter]

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And they insisted that you learn them
before you got passed to the next grade.

00:06:57:36 00:06:59:64
You did not get passed in the
school system I grew up in

00:06:59:84 00:07:02:51
if you couldn't read or write,
you were not passed along.

00:07:02:71 00:07:04:42
There's no such thing as
any "social promotions"

00:07:04:42 00:07:06:84
as I'm hearing them called
today or whatever that means.

00:07:06:84 00:07:08:00
And I must tell you, I use the word

00:07:08:00 00:07:10:44
I don't know social promotion means.
You can't read,

00:07:10:64 00:07:13:68
you still can't read
whatever else anybody else said.

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And it has to be very maddening and destructive
to the person who was passed on to tell

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them they could do something
that they could never do.

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And I was that age

00:07:22:68 00:07:26:64
and when they get to this destructive part
of their lives, they can't go back because

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they are so hostile
and so desperate and angry.

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They choose other walks of life in most
cases, which is - and I'm glad to know

00:07:36:56 00:07:41:68
that our school system is about to return
to what the three R's were.

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Either you can read, write
or we don't pass you.

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And I think that's an excellent -
that was in my school system.

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Then the next level of schooling was

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high school, to which I only finished the
third year in high school.

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1941. The Tuskegee Airmen were
being assembled down at Tuskegee,

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about 200 miles to the south of where
I grew up out close to Birmingham in case

00:08:03:76 00:08:05:32
all of you on a map.

00:08:05:92 00:08:07:88
I appreciate the geography of my state.

00:08:08:70 00:08:11:32
Montgomery and Tuskegee
is almost on the southern end of the state

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with Mobile, which is quite a ways
from where Birmingham is located.

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I had a great interest in flying.

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I had seen all these airplanes from
the airport while they're flying over

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and I said to myself, "Huh, ideally

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would be if I could fly one of those

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birds" to myself.

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I never told anybody else -
they thought I was crazy.

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The idea when I grew up, I told
my parents I wanted to fly.

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They had to know I was a mad man.

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It's almost like telling your parents now

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you want to be a
space person on Star Trek,

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taking a trip to Neptune.

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And somebody ask you say "What?"

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And I always had this
vision of flying aircraft.

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And the first opportunity I had,
low and behold, the Tuskegee Airmen came.

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My mother said to me, said,
"Why do you want to go fly airplanes?"

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I said, "Well, I can't explain it.

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I just want to fly them."

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In all reality, what I wanted was freedom.

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I had been, for so long,
everywhere,

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limited and confined by the system in
which I grew up, which we call apartheid.

00:09:06:92 00:09:08:80
As an aside, and I really mean that,

00:09:09:00 00:09:10:36
in every word

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young Black males especially
to call all white

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women "miss,"
all white males "mister,"

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regardless of their age.
If you were in the city of Birmingham,

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you had to step off
the sidewalk to let them pass.

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You couldn't stay on the
same sidewalk with them.

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Obviously you couldn't drink from the same
fountains. And all of this,

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it's kind of hard for you to imagine.
I mean, hard for you to think,

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and my kids really think I'm
creating bizarre

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stories when I tell them this,
but this is all factual.

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You can go back in history books
and find that it's true.

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South Africa imported our apartheid
from Alabama to South Africa.

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For those of you who are history buffs,
you go back and look in time,

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and South Africa was this really -

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it was transported from our country. It's
amazing that somehow it'd come back,

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that apartheid left Alabama,
went to South Africa.

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And probably the South Africans
are freeing themselves

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faster than the people
in Alabama are doing.

00:09:54:44 00:09:57:20
As I keep reading about
many of these cities where the

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education levels and building schools
are still a problem in some of them.

00:10:00:96 00:10:03:00
So we still have not yet gotten it right.

00:10:03:60 00:10:06:56
But it was obvious to me early on
that the greatest freedom that anyone

00:10:06:56 00:10:08:24
would experience is going
to be through education,

00:10:08:24 00:10:10:40
by whatever the process,
anyone that's did anything.

00:10:10:60 00:10:11:92
So I just say to you,

00:10:11:92 00:10:15:72
in liberating myself in terms of justify
wanting to fly, was only an expression

00:10:15:92 00:10:20:72
of a larger vision I had of the globalness
of getting to where I need to go

00:10:20:72 00:10:24:44
faster than anybody else to get all this
information to them so everybody could use

00:10:24:64 00:10:29:36
it in a way that it would hope
and help make everybody better, quicker.

00:10:29:56 00:10:34:24
Not only myself, not my family, but all
my neighbors, friends, state, etc.

00:10:34:44 00:10:36:32
So I spent a lot of time

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cogitating within, on how
to get all these things done.

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I was never too much on

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postponing things

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to the next day, to the next week.

00:10:50:68 00:10:52:28
I figured I might not live through today,

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so I had to get it done today
while I was still alive.

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Let somebody else
worry about the next day.

00:10:59:80 00:11:00:44
To give you an aside
about the next day -

00:11:00:44 00:11:02:64
I went to a store once
and this man had a sign up -

00:11:02:64 00:11:03:68
my mother sent me to the store -

00:11:03:68 00:11:05:84
it had a great big blue
background, white letters,

00:11:05:90 00:11:08:40
that says, "Ask me for credit
tomorrow." [inaudible 00:11:08]

00:11:08:40 00:11:11:20
I said to myself, and yes,
"I wonder, what does this mean?

00:11:11:20 00:11:13:41
I can't understand why
that man asks for credit tomorrow."

00:11:13:41 00:11:15:80
So I asked him one day, I said
"Will you please explain this sign to me?"

00:11:16:00 00:11:19:16
He said, "You know,

00:11:19:36 00:11:22:68
every day you come into my store,

00:11:22:88 00:11:24:28
it is today."

00:11:25:67 00:11:29:84
[Laughter]

00:11:29:88 00:11:31:12
So I learned very early

00:11:31:32 00:11:33:36
there is no tomorrow.

00:11:34:76 00:11:36:40
So for those of you who postpone

00:11:36:24 00:11:39:92
until tomorrow what you would be
shocked to find - it never existed.

00:11:40:12 00:11:42:24
All a figment of somebody's imagination.

00:11:42:44 00:11:44:56
It was always today,
and albeit some might

00:11:44:76 00:11:46:28
of thought tomorrow was coming.

00:11:46:28 00:11:47:68
So I wanted to get it all done today

00:11:47:88 00:11:50:00
while the sun was still shining.

00:11:50:00 00:11:51:36
And therefore, I was in a hurry to get

00:11:51:36 00:11:54:20
to where I was going very quickly
and as fast as I could get there.

00:11:54:40 00:11:57:96
And obviously, planes was the fastest
way to get there. Anyway,

00:11:58:16 00:12:02:16
I enlisted in the military
when I was a teen.

00:12:02:36 00:12:05:67
Was a pilot back in 1941,
probably 16 at the time,

00:12:05:87 00:12:08:60
and I should say I was
in the eleventh grade

00:12:08:80 00:12:11:00
and I had been passed because of

00:12:11:20 00:12:14:48
my professor says I was
learning too fast in other grades.

00:12:14:48 00:12:16:40
So I think I skipped three grades.

00:12:16:19 00:12:17:24
I don't know which and I

00:12:17:44 00:12:19:88
forgot when it was. But anyway,

00:12:20:80 00:12:21:52
it was -

00:12:21:68 00:12:23:40
much of my time was
being wasted in the schools.

00:12:23:57 00:12:25:72
Now as I see it back then,
if I was in trouble,

00:12:25:92 00:12:26:80
I was always -

00:12:26:80 00:12:28:33
The instructors always put me
out the classroom.

00:12:28:53 00:12:29:48
That's before I got to the service.

00:12:29:48 00:12:32:48
They always had me go to the front
office because I was destructive,

00:12:32:48 00:12:34:28
I was distracting,
I was in everybody's hair.

00:12:34:48 00:12:37:80
I mean,
they just couldn't tolerate me.

00:12:37:28 00:12:40:68
The librarian didn't want
to see me coming. [laughter]

00:12:42:80 00:12:43:40
And I played all the sports.

00:12:43:24 00:12:45:52
I was in basketball,
football. I knew everybody.

00:12:45:72 00:12:48:52
I mean, so you know. Anyway,
the principal told me, he said,

00:12:48:72 00:12:49:92
"You know," he said

00:12:50:16 00:12:53:72
"Charles, I'm gonna
make you my messenger,

00:12:54:12 00:12:57:92
so you can stay out of everybody's hair."
He says "It's obvious

00:12:58:12 00:13:00:80
you just distract everybody." I said

00:13:00:28 00:13:03:00
"But I'm doing my work."
He said "I realize that.

00:13:03:00 00:13:04:40
But you are distracting.

00:13:04:24 00:13:05:84
You don't keep quiet.

00:13:06:40 00:13:08:84
You get up and move
around and you do things.

00:13:09:40 00:13:10:32
Shoot

00:13:10:52 00:13:13:56
little balls at people. Pull
on the little girls' hair."

00:13:13:76 00:13:17:44
They had ink stands on my desk
when I was in school,

00:13:17:64 00:13:19:48
that you had to put an
inkwell in. We used to

00:13:19:48 00:13:20:96
tie young ladies - they used to wear
plaits on they head -

00:13:20:96 00:13:23:40
used to tie rubber things
to their plaits, to the desk,

00:13:23:24 00:13:25:84
so when they got up,
they couldn't get up.

00:13:26:44 00:13:28:41
Anyway, [laughter]

00:13:28:56 00:13:31:53
in that background, I decided probably
the best thing for me to do

00:13:31:73 00:13:32:56
was go in the military.

00:13:32:76 00:13:34:68
So in 11th grade I signed up.
Sure enough,

00:13:34:88 00:13:39:32
they sent me down to Lake Pontchartrain
in Louisiana to join some infantry unit,

00:13:39:52 00:13:42:92
and I'm trying to fly. I said
"Y'all got me in the wrong unit.

00:13:43:70 00:13:44:12
I want to be a pilot.

00:13:44:32 00:13:46:44
I did not intend to be an infantryman."

00:13:46:64 00:13:47:96
I enlisted in infantry.

00:13:48:16 00:13:50:44
They said "No, no."
And I said "No." Anyway,

00:13:50:44 00:13:53:72
so I called my mother, wrote her really,
told her get me out of the service.

00:13:53:72 00:13:54:92
So she got me - I was a teenager -

00:13:55:12 00:13:56:40
she got me out.

00:13:56:60 00:13:59:52
And I - no, I went back to school.

00:14:00:68 00:14:02:96
I was finding - I was
trying to get to where I want to go.

00:14:02:96 00:14:04:76
So you got to recognize that
everything was not

00:14:04:76 00:14:07:56
necessarily as unique for those of us
who were not blessed with all

00:14:07:76 00:14:11:92
of the attributes of having things
in place for you initially.

00:14:11:92 00:14:13:92
I knew nothing about scholarships
when I was in school.

00:14:13:92 00:14:15:71
I'm sure where I went somebody might have

00:14:15:91 00:14:17:80
mentioned them I never heard it.

00:14:17:28 00:14:19:40
And therefore I didn't recognize any help

00:14:19:53 00:14:20:81
I was gonna get in college.

00:14:20:81 00:14:23:28
It was gonna be
what little bit my parents could do,

00:14:23:48 00:14:25:48
but most of it's gonna be mine.

00:14:25:48 00:14:27:83
And by the time I would have
finished high school,

00:14:28:33 00:14:29:48
the G.I. Bill of Rights came along.

00:14:29:48 00:14:31:12
So I really reenlisted in the service

00:14:31:32 00:14:35:00
and ended up
serving from three years to get

00:14:35:20 00:14:38:92
at least four years college, to
which was why, how I got to college.

00:14:39:12 00:14:40:80
Make sure I say that.

00:14:41:56 00:14:44:48
My teachers are- were very kind to me.

00:14:44:68 00:14:48:80
They really was like part of the family.

00:14:48:28 00:14:50:94
So they went out of their
way to make sure,

00:14:51:14 00:14:53:00
whether it was at school, at home,

00:14:53:18 00:14:55:88
whatever it was you needed,
that they were very supportive.

00:14:55:88 00:14:57:56
And I can never say
enough on environment

00:14:57:76 00:15:00:16
because sometime when you
are receiving a thing

00:15:00:36 00:15:02:64
it never dawned on you,
until you are away from it,

00:15:02:84 00:15:07:64
what it was about the system itself
that helped you get to where you were,

00:15:07:84 00:15:12:20
even though you were not aware that it was
going on in a form in which it took.

00:15:12:40 00:15:17:40
When people give
exceptional and extra of themself,

00:15:17:24 00:15:21:96
to which I have never forgotten,
and which I have always been willing

00:15:22:16 00:15:25:16
to do, and therefore people ask me,
"Why do you stay so late?

00:15:25:16 00:15:25:88
What do you do this?"

00:15:25:98 00:15:28:68
Well, I did it for the reason
I'm now telling you that

00:15:28:88 00:15:30:68
I did not tell you then.

00:15:30:68 00:15:34:52
There were so many others who went out
of their way to make sure it was possible

00:15:34:52 00:15:36:48
that I got to where I was.
Not only my parents

00:15:36:68 00:15:40:51
but a lot of folks in the community
where you grew up who helped,

00:15:40:71 00:15:41:44
white and Black.

00:15:41:44 00:15:44:36
So I want to leave this out,
it was not always hostility as it might

00:15:44:56 00:15:49:52
sound, albeit there were a lot of crazy
rules that a lot of them violated, too.

00:15:49:52 00:15:52:48
Since nobody's going to ask them,
they'd ask me who would ask them.

00:15:52:48 00:15:55:52
But there was always interchange
that was very good and friendly.

00:15:55:72 00:15:59:48
How it took place in an orderly
manner to make sure you got it.

00:15:59:48 00:16:01:12
Did they have any other doctors
in the community where I grew up?

00:16:01:32 00:16:03:28
Yes, my mother worked for a doctor.

00:16:03:48 00:16:05:40
I did not know

00:16:06:60 00:16:09:40
any, particularly as I can remember
on a personal level.

00:16:09:60 00:16:13:92
I would have said to you that, yes, this
is the person I would like to be like.

00:16:14:12 00:16:15:92
So my getting into medicine,

00:16:16:12 00:16:19:60
which I'll get to a little later,
did not have an early [Inaudible].

00:16:19:80 00:16:23:16
My interest was in really
the sciences and math.

00:16:23:92 00:16:27:60
I majored at Howard
in physics. In my junior year,

00:16:27:80 00:16:29:80
professor,

00:16:29:28 00:16:32:52
Chairman of the Department,
Coleman, called all of his seniors in,

00:16:32:72 00:16:34:56
those who were gonna be
majors in the subject,

00:16:34:76 00:16:38:40
sit you down individually and ask you,
"What did you plan to do?"

00:16:38:24 00:16:40:60
So I told him, I say,
"Professor Coleman,

00:16:40:80 00:16:44:36
what I would like to do, really,
is to become a nuclear physicist,

00:16:44:56 00:16:50:00
and I would like to really
spend my time at Livermore Laboratory or

00:16:50:00 00:16:53:12
at GE in Pittsburgh."
So he laughed for about fifteen minutes.

00:16:53:32 00:16:55:56
I was getting angrier by the minute.

00:16:55:76 00:16:58:80
This is now 1951.

00:16:58:80 00:17:01:67
And he finally stopped laughing,
sat back in his chair on his elbows

00:17:01:68 00:17:05:40
and said to me, he said, "Charles"
he said "do you know anybody at

00:17:05:60 00:17:07:80
Livermore?" I said "No."

00:17:08:00 00:17:10:32
He said "Do you know anybody
at GE?" I said "No."

00:17:10:52 00:17:11:80
He said "Well let me tell you something."

00:17:12:00 00:17:15:76
He said, "To my knowledge,
there are no Blacks

00:17:15:96 00:17:20:44
in science anywhere in this country
that I know of doing anything."

00:17:21:96 00:17:24:40
That's in 1951.

00:17:25:00 00:17:26:56
I did not know that.

00:17:26:56 00:17:28:64
But in my naivete,
I guess, you have to learn everything

00:17:28:64 00:17:32:32
by bumping into all of these rough edges
and trying to figure out what else to do.

00:17:32:32 00:17:33:88
So I asked him "What would be my options?"

00:17:33:88 00:17:37:16
He said, "Well, you can teach high
school or college level physics."

00:17:37:36 00:17:39:28
I said, "That's not my forte."

00:17:39:28 00:17:41:00
I said "I'm sure students and I would have

00:17:41:20 00:17:45:16
a tough time in the same classroom,
which I already know,

00:17:45:36 00:17:46:92
and there's no need of me

00:17:47:12 00:17:49:00
spending my time in that."

00:17:49:20 00:17:51:48
So most of my classmates and friends

00:17:51:48 00:17:54:92
really were in premed, which they had been
trying to get me go into already.

00:17:55:12 00:17:59:16
So I ended up really
somewhere my junior year,

00:17:59:36 00:18:04:56
adding an additional discipline to my
already crowded schedule, of biology.

00:18:04:56 00:18:06:60
So I ended up probably with three degrees.

00:18:06:80 00:18:09:56
[Inaudible 00:18:07] was a degree
in chemistry, physics, and math.

00:18:09:56 00:18:11:92
You go back and look in the same four
years I was in school

00:18:12:12 00:18:14:86
only because the tracks
that I took and things which

00:18:14:87 00:18:17:52
I were doing and a lot of my
colleagues they used to ask me

00:18:17:52 00:18:19:20
all the time, they said,
"You go to Harvard?"

00:18:19:40 00:18:21:84
And I used to always laugh because
I thought it was a joke.

00:18:21:92 00:18:24:52
They didn't ever know it was
a joke and I never told them.

00:18:24:52 00:18:25:54
And I'd say
"I don't know how to spell that."

00:18:25:56 00:18:26:80
They'd say, "What?" And I'd say,

00:18:26:87 00:18:29:44
"You have to spell it.
How you spell that word Harvard?

00:18:29:51 00:18:31:36
I never heard of it."
They say, they'd spell it.

00:18:31:56 00:18:35:32
I knew about Harvard.
I had applied to Harvard and

00:18:35:52 00:18:36:96
not accepted. But anyway, that's -

00:18:37:16 00:18:41:72
"No, I went to a school called H - o - w -
a - r - d that you've never heard of,"

00:18:41:72 00:18:42:64
and they'd all walk away.

00:18:42:64 00:18:45:64
And I'm sure they'd never say anything
else to me about my school anymore.

00:18:45:84 00:18:48:48
But [laughter]

00:18:48:56 00:18:51:88
they would say Howard where I learned all
these things I'm telling you about.

00:18:52:80 00:18:55:64
And a fantastic school, faculty, staff.

00:18:55:84 00:18:58:28
Finally changed to a medical career.

00:18:58:36 00:18:59:36
And in the meantime,

00:18:59:56 00:19:03:92
I had signed up for ROTC
while I was there and

00:19:04:12 00:19:06:17
ended up having a commitment
to go in the Air Force again,

00:19:06:20 00:19:10:36
to serve as an officer. And in

00:19:10:56 00:19:13:36
pilot status. I became a fighter pilot

00:19:13:36 00:19:14:56
for the Air Force finally.

00:19:14:62 00:19:17:71
Remember I told you I started out
back before I finished high school

00:19:17:91 00:19:21:84
trying to
be a pilot, and never made it.

00:19:22:40 00:19:24:28
Lo and behold, here
I end up now in college

00:19:24:48 00:19:30:44
and I'm finally, with all the information
I need to get to where I want to go.

00:19:30:64 00:19:33:84
So I went and became
a jet fighter pilot. Very exciting.

00:19:33:84 00:19:35:16
Go everywhere very fast.

00:19:35:36 00:19:38:40
Communications,
whatever else you want to talk about

00:19:38:24 00:19:42:40
you can believe it. I watched
Firefox last night with Clint Eastwood

00:19:42:17 00:19:44:12
and, you know, just as exciting still.

00:19:44:32 00:19:46:28
I mean, I watch those planes
go at Mach 3 and

00:19:46:28 00:19:48:16
Mach 4 wherever
they're going for

00:19:48:36 00:19:49:52
they are so fast.

00:19:49:72 00:19:52:24
And you can't imagine that anyone who is

00:19:52:24 00:19:54:28
successful at whatever they do,
the first thing you have

00:19:54:48 00:19:58:64
known that they have done was, it was
communications that made it all easy about

00:19:58:84 00:20:02:36
whatever means they attempted it,
flying in one of them.

00:20:02:56 00:20:05:24
So while I was in the service,

00:20:05:24 00:20:07:96
I was offered a regular commission,
which is the same thing as being

00:20:08:16 00:20:11:28
equivalent to graduating from one
of the academies,

00:20:11:48 00:20:15:20
because I was a distinguished
military graduate student.

00:20:15:40 00:20:19:16
And so I asked my commander,

00:20:19:16 00:20:21:76
who was a high school graduate -
remember I'm a college graduate -

00:20:21:76 00:20:24:80
he's a lieutenant colonel.
I'm now a first lieutenant,

00:20:24:28 00:20:27:32
flying these great big mammoth
jet aircraft around,

00:20:27:52 00:20:29:52
and he said - I said to him, "Sir,
I said,

00:20:29:72 00:20:33:28
if I were to stay in the Air Force
for the next 30 years,

00:20:34:32 00:20:36:72
would it be possible if I was otherwise

00:20:36:92 00:20:41:80
qualified to go to command and staff
school and to the war college?"

00:20:41:80 00:20:43:00
Now, why would I ask those two questions,

00:20:43:14 00:20:44:44
you all would know right away,

00:20:44:44 00:20:46:16
but if you were ever
gonna be a general officer

00:20:46:16 00:20:48:84
in the military, you had to at least go
by those two schools,

00:20:49:40 00:20:52:84
otherwise you would never be even
considered, which I already knew.

00:20:52:84 00:20:54:84
And so he looked at me
and he says, "Well,

00:20:55:40 00:20:58:56
you see, you know, you colored boys
can stay in service 30 years,

00:20:58:56 00:21:02:40
you'll be a lieutenant colonel." I said
"I'm already a first lieutenant. Captain,

00:21:02:15 00:21:03:40
major, lieutenant colonel -

00:21:03:60 00:21:05:80
30 years?" He said "Yes."

00:21:05:80 00:21:07:16
I said, "Well, y'all
keep your commission.

00:21:07:16 00:21:08:28
Tell 'em I appreciate it.

00:21:08:48 00:21:10:16
Thanks, but no thanks."

00:21:10:72 00:21:12:24
[Laughter] I got -

00:21:12:44 00:21:15:80
got out of the service
and went to medical school.

00:21:16:16 00:21:17:40
And,

00:21:17:44 00:21:19:80
had a very good time in medical school.

00:21:19:28 00:21:21:48
Howard. My last two years,

00:21:21:48 00:21:23:36
the Chairman of the Department
of Medicine,

00:21:23:36 00:21:24:82
Dr. Walter Lester Henry,
to whom

00:21:24:83 00:21:27:72
Dr. Barton Haynes has
had the privilege of meeting.

00:21:27:76 00:21:30:56
One of the brightest men I've
ever known in my life, anyway,

00:21:30:76 00:21:33:28
on earth.

00:21:33:48 00:21:35:92
He decided by whatever reason, that

00:21:35:92 00:21:39:00
my class was the first 100 students
at Howard. So there were more students

00:21:39:20 00:21:42:48
than the school could accommodate
in their clinical years.

00:21:42:68 00:21:43:84
So he transferred me

00:21:43:84 00:21:47:64
to the Walter Reed Institute of Research
into the National Institutes of Health.

00:21:47:64 00:21:48:84
It does not appear in my CV.

00:21:48:84 00:21:50:36
So someone would never know this

00:21:50:56 00:21:52:68
unless I told you.
I don't know why it's not there.

00:21:52:69 00:21:54:72
No secret.
Just never thought about it.

00:21:54:72 00:21:56:00
But I do want to put it in

00:21:56:20 00:21:59:20
because it would not -
not be fair to have someone think that I

00:21:59:40 00:22:02:84
did not get an education,
that somebody might not have seen,

00:22:02:84 00:22:05:88
quite different from the school
that I might have been attending.

00:22:06:80 00:22:07:68
And therefore

00:22:07:88 00:22:09:91
my perspective on medicine and the things

00:22:09:98 00:22:12:35
that I learned were
tremendously different,

00:22:12:88 00:22:14:15
then had I spent all of my time

00:22:14:35 00:22:16:80
on my own school's campus.
Out of the necessity

00:22:16:28 00:22:20:32
of the things which were available
at those two institutions by themselves.

00:22:20:32 00:22:23:20
So I knew a lot about research and,
remember now, I majored in physics,

00:22:23:40 00:22:27:36
so I had a background and while I was
in medical school that I didn't tell you,

00:22:27:56 00:22:29:48
part of my working to support myself

00:22:29:48 00:22:31:38
and my family through school was I worked

00:22:31:58 00:22:33:48
at the National
Bureau of Standards at night.

00:22:33:64 00:22:35:60
And what did I do at National
Bureau of Standards at night?

00:22:35:80 00:22:38:68
I worked in the high temperature
physics laboratory

00:22:38:88 00:22:41:80
where I spent my time calibrating high

00:22:41:80 00:22:42:23
temperature thermocouples.

00:22:42:43 00:22:44:36
Now it's important to know
what a thermocouple is.

00:22:44:56 00:22:49:48
Thermocouples are two di- two dissimilar
metals which are fused together

00:22:49:68 00:22:53:56
to literally be placed in high
temperatures like on your stove

00:22:53:56 00:22:54:88
when you turn it up and it turns red.

00:22:55:80 00:22:56:68
You might not know this,

00:22:56:68 00:23:00:20
but everything in this country is
regulated by some standard and therefore

00:23:00:40 00:23:04:96
every stove that is built,
someone has some device at which they

00:23:05:16 00:23:09:40
measure to make sure the temperature
is precisely what they say it is.

00:23:09:16 00:23:12:16
It is now known as the National Institute
of Science and Technology

00:23:12:16 00:23:13:44
but at the time I was in
school the National Bureau

00:23:13:64 00:23:18:12
of Standards. The first computer
in this country was located there,

00:23:18:32 00:23:21:48
which I was using when
I was in medical school.

00:23:21:48 00:23:22:51
And somebody said "Good grief"

00:23:22:71 00:23:24:64
they ask me all the time,
"Do you know how to use a computer?"

00:23:24:68 00:23:25:54
And I always laugh.

00:23:25:74 00:23:27:76
I said, "No, I don't know
how to use a computer."

00:23:28:36 00:23:31:00
[Laughter] But I've been using computers

00:23:31:20 00:23:35:72
since I was in medical school.
The only one in existence at the time

00:23:35:72 00:23:37:36
because the numbers generated were so

00:23:37:56 00:23:42:34
huge, it would take too much time
literally for us to compile.

00:23:42:34 00:23:46:44
Most results at the high temperature
physics labs were to eight digit

00:23:46:64 00:23:48:36
significance or longer.

00:23:48:56 00:23:53:00
You might not recognize how long it would
take you in most instruments of that day

00:23:53:20 00:23:58:64
to compute anything out to that
significance - eight digits.

00:23:58:74 00:24:00:84
And it took an awful
long time to do those.

00:24:01:40 00:24:03:16
So while I was in medical school,

00:24:03:16 00:24:06:88
I also was working at a high temperature
physics lab where I was learning a lot

00:24:07:80 00:24:12:64
about high temperatures.
The rockets that go off into space,

00:24:12:64 00:24:13:99
you have no good way to measure

00:24:14:00 00:24:17:24
the temperatures,
that heat being generated by those engines

00:24:17:44 00:24:22:80
that you see all the time because all
metals you know would absolutely melt.

00:24:23:80 00:24:26:32
And although no one tells
us that, I'm just telling you

00:24:26:34 00:24:28:00
so you'd know.
So how did they measure them?

00:24:28:20 00:24:29:80
Well, they use optics.

00:24:30:12 00:24:32:12
It's done by optics,

00:24:32:72 00:24:34:40
calibrated machine.

00:24:34:40 00:24:38:20
So they, too, have limits on by which they
are prescribed and which they work in.

00:24:38:36 00:24:41:36
So scientists have always had
means by which things are done.

00:24:41:36 00:24:43:88
All this, again, was preparing
me for all of the rigors

00:24:44:80 00:24:46:80
I would endure once I was in medicine.

00:24:46:80 00:24:49:24
And I went through it pretty good because
I had all of this ancillary benefits

00:24:49:44 00:24:53:44
happening to me as I went through,
all accumulating assignments. And someone

00:24:53:64 00:24:58:28
asked me in undergraduate school once
was there anything as useless knowledge?

00:24:58:48 00:25:01:56
And made me write
a treatise in my fraternity

00:25:01:76 00:25:08:27
on - and actually a 20 page dissertation -
on the usefulness of useless knowledge.

00:25:08:30 00:25:11:00
[Laughter]

00:25:11:40 00:25:13:24
Huh you think that's funny you see.
I did, too.

00:25:13:24 00:25:14:24
I thought it was absurd.

00:25:14:44 00:25:19:00
I mean, write 20 pages firstly,
I said, but as a useless knowledge.

00:25:19:20 00:25:20:80
Make a long story short,

00:25:21:00 00:25:23:20
what I found out was
there is no knowledge

00:25:23:40 00:25:24:80
that is useless.

00:25:25:00 00:25:27:71
It's only the person who finds it useless.

00:25:27:91 00:25:31:42
[Laughter]

00:25:31:48 00:25:32:64
Different take.

00:25:32:84 00:25:36:52
All knowledge is useful
to somebody, somewhere.

00:25:38:40 00:25:39:96
Bottom line was that,

00:25:40:16 00:25:41:76
so again, I had another dissertation

00:25:41:76 00:25:44:40
on the usefulness of useless
knowledge. So all the way through

00:25:44:40 00:25:45:48
I had all this knowledge accumulating

00:25:45:68 00:25:49:76
to make things a little easier for me
to get through in medical school.

00:25:49:76 00:25:51:36
And what was I deciding in medical school?

00:25:51:36 00:25:53:56
I decided where was I going
to practice when I finished.

00:25:53:56 00:25:55:28
So I decided I was going to go back home,

00:25:55:48 00:25:59:80
from which I had come,
to do all I could to help

00:25:59:21 00:26:03:36
everyone else who had been working before
me do all the things we could to make sure

00:26:03:56 00:26:07:96
everyone had the same
opportunities everyone else had.

00:26:09:88 00:26:13:68
Now I never said that before, but I'll say
it now. That was my total objective.

00:26:13:88 00:26:16:95
Everybody. Where I grew up, there were
a lot of poor white folks and Black folks.

00:26:16:95 00:26:17:99
They were not just Black.

00:26:18:00 00:26:22:24
Things that affected everybody the same
way was because of lacks of education.

00:26:22:44 00:26:24:48
That, to me, was the biggest hindrance.

00:26:24:48 00:26:26:32
If I go back and measure any one quantity.

00:26:26:32 00:26:28:20
And I knew that the only way we
was going to solve it by

00:26:28:40 00:26:30:52
some means finding a way to see to it that

00:26:30:72 00:26:35:84
everyone had access to, and
the opportunity to

00:26:36:40 00:26:41:28
be educated. Didn't have to be if you
didn't choose to, which I recognize.

00:26:41:48 00:26:42:96
When I was at a

00:26:45:56 00:26:47:24
little social

00:26:47:44 00:26:52:84
this past week, someone
says, "You know, hey,

00:26:53:40 00:26:56:84
everyone deserves an opportunity.

00:27:00:24 00:27:03:84
Everyone deserves an opportunity.

00:27:04:68 00:27:09:12
No one deserves an education.

00:27:09:48 00:27:10:88
You have to earn it."

00:27:11:80 00:27:13:76
Let me make sure I say what
the person meant by that.

00:27:13:76 00:27:16:32
Everyone should have the opportunity
to do all these things

00:27:16:32 00:27:18:48
but then by that,
it's not to be given to you.

00:27:18:48 00:27:20:40
You really have to work at it
and earn it on your own.

00:27:20:40 00:27:22:64
That's really what the statement meant.
So it makes a lot of sense.

00:27:22:84 00:27:24:20
Same thing.

00:27:24:40 00:27:27:77
So I was to return to the South.
Turned out that

00:27:27:81 00:27:28:97
Dr. Charles Watts, who

00:27:29:17 00:27:32:60
many of you might know
was a surgeon here in Durham,

00:27:32:80 00:27:38:16
who was the Honors Day speaker
for my medical school class at Howard,

00:27:38:36 00:27:41:40
1963.

00:27:41:40 00:27:43:32
The dean of the medical
school was from Alabama.

00:27:43:32 00:27:46:52
Dr. Harden was his name.
"Conspirator,"

00:27:46:52 00:27:47:80
he said to me. "I got somebody

00:27:48:00 00:27:50:64
I want you to meet.
Just the man you want to go south.

00:27:50:64 00:27:53:28
I'm gonna hook you up with him
and everything will be fine."

00:27:53:28 00:27:54:32
So he introduced me to

00:27:54:33 00:27:58:36
Dr. Watts, and I met this very
distinguished gentleman.

00:27:58:56 00:28:01:68
Tell me how I was gonna be
this huge fish in a small pond.

00:28:01:88 00:28:04:80
I said "Yes, I always had that as a goal,

00:28:05:00 00:28:07:88
to be a big fish in a little pond."

00:28:08:80 00:28:11:48
Well, anyway, I might have been a fish,
but I don't know what size I was.

00:28:11:68 00:28:14:52
But [laughter]

00:28:14:64 00:28:16:94
But that's how I got to Durham.

00:28:17:14 00:28:20:28
Dr. Watts having
invited me down for a visit.

00:28:20:48 00:28:23:28
Family came down to visit with him and

00:28:23:48 00:28:25:12
the Clement family,

00:28:25:32 00:28:27:32
Bill and Josephine Clement.

00:28:27:50 00:28:28:80
Josephine is now deceased.

00:28:28:96 00:28:30:97
Many of you might know such
a beautiful,

00:28:30:97 00:28:33:51
distinguished lady as Josephine.

00:28:33:51 00:28:37:60
And Dr. Watts convinced us that we should
come to Durham, which we did.

00:28:37:80 00:28:42:40
Lincoln Hospital was then in existence,
for many of you who may or may not know.

00:28:42:40 00:28:44:64
At one time there was 123
Black hospitals in this

00:28:44:84 00:28:48:20
country of necessity because we
could not get care elsewhere.

00:28:48:40 00:28:53:48
And through the years, they have
all down to probably down to three,

00:28:53:68 00:28:55:00
be my guess at this point.

00:28:55:20 00:28:56:76
We lost 120.

00:28:56:76 00:28:58:80
There was probably 112

00:28:58:80 00:29:00:85
Black medical schools in this country
before the Flexner Report.

00:29:00:87 00:29:02:80
After the Flexner it went very quickly

00:29:02:80 00:29:06:20
down to about
what you see now. Really four.

00:29:06:40 00:29:12:56
There were two left, Meharry and Howard,
and in your lifetime, Morehouse and Drew.

00:29:12:76 00:29:16:32
Drew is now a question mark in my mind.
[inaudible] repeat this.

00:29:16:52 00:29:21:56
Because where they are. Dollars everywhere
get to be very tight,

00:29:21:56 00:29:25:20
and when they start looking around, where
to cut them, you soon find out that those

00:29:25:40 00:29:31:20
who were always on the fringes
end up being lost in space, so to speak,

00:29:31:40 00:29:35:48
and they move on to another
school and another subject.

00:29:35:68 00:29:39:20
So we have four medical schools
and three hospitals left.

00:29:39:40 00:29:43:72
And those can argue the merits
and demerits of the value of which one.

00:29:43:92 00:29:46:96
My only concern was that everybody
had access to healthcare.

00:29:47:90 00:29:49:40
And I never declared
how it should be meted

00:29:49:57 00:29:52:68
out since I knew those who were
paying was going decide that anyway.

00:29:52:73 00:29:54:48
It was always abide by the golden rule:

00:29:54:68 00:29:57:48
he who has the gold makes the rule.

00:29:57:68 00:30:02:40
No, I mean, life is very simple and
doesn't get to be very complicated.

00:30:02:40 00:30:04:52
But if you have access, that's all right.
We still have

00:30:04:52 00:30:06:65
quite a few million people outside
the healthcare system.

00:30:06:85 00:30:09:28
In New York morning's paper,
those of you who had time to read it

00:30:09:28 00:30:11:29
They'll be there again tomorrow
and the next

00:30:11:40 00:30:13:60
year after that it will get larger.
For whatever the reasons

00:30:13:80 00:30:16:44
yet we have not dealt with it
at some point.

00:30:16:64 00:30:20:12
And I'm sure that we will be more
successful in seeing to it,

00:30:20:12 00:30:23:48
that this 43 million people in our
country do have at least access

00:30:23:68 00:30:28:44
to physicians without it being a problem
for either the patient or the physician.

00:30:28:64 00:30:30:52
Make sure I say it that way.

00:30:31:00 00:30:33:64
But in coming to Durham Lincoln Hospital,

00:30:33:64 00:30:36:52
being what it was, inadequate
hospital. It was inadequate staffed.

00:30:36:72 00:30:40:96
It was inadequate as a facility. The best
we had and we did the best in it.

00:30:41:16 00:30:45:92
It turned out that Duke was very
cooperative in sending their staff over.

00:30:46:12 00:30:50:92
Watts hospital physicians also likewise
came over and to consult.

00:30:51:12 00:30:52:68
And the training program,

00:30:52:88 00:30:55:70
for which I came to Lincoln Hospital in,

00:30:55:72 00:30:58:60
it was run jointly by Howard and Duke.

00:30:59:32 00:31:02:40
Howard sent down their residents.

00:31:02:24 00:31:05:68
Duke sent their faculty over

00:31:05:68 00:31:09:52
to train those of us who were brave enough
to endure the rigors of such a system.

00:31:09:52 00:31:10:48
Many of our friends had gone

00:31:10:48 00:31:13:24
into the bigger hospitals in California,
Chicago, New York.

00:31:13:44 00:31:15:60
So we didn't have to go through all that.
But anyway

00:31:15:80 00:31:18:88
we did probably just as well.

00:31:19:40 00:31:20:52
Maybe not as fast,

00:31:20:72 00:31:22:52
but I'm sure just as well.

00:31:22:72 00:31:29:84
And, Lincoln Hospital
finally closed with the

00:31:30:40 00:31:33:40
building now
the Durham Regional Hospital,

00:31:33:60 00:31:36:32
which was then known as Durham Memorial -

00:31:36:52 00:31:39:56
Durham County Memorial Hospital,
when it was initially established.

00:31:39:56 00:31:42:36
I really was on the planning
committee for that too. I must say

00:31:42:36 00:31:44:10
I don't forget all the things I have done.

00:31:44:30 00:31:45:68
When you're only the one person around

00:31:45:68 00:31:47:23
everybody comes to get you
for all these things

00:31:47:43 00:31:49:61
and somehow everybody
thinks you're important because of it.

00:31:49:61 00:31:51:60
What you need to recognize is
they didn't have anybody else to get,

00:31:51:80 00:31:53:88
so you were always the person
they captured. [Laughter]

00:31:54:80 00:31:58:80
To make sure at least there was somebody
who looks like you,

00:31:58:28 00:32:03:28
at least saying something in your behalf,
hopefully to make things better for you.

00:32:03:28 00:32:07:37
Served on this planning committee
for the hospital for ten years,

00:32:07:57 00:32:12:80
'til it was completed in 1976.
It opened in 1977,

00:32:13:00 00:32:15:60
the year which
Lincoln Hospital was closed.

00:32:15:80 00:32:19:96
Likewise Watts Hospital was
closed and they had one hospital.

00:32:20:16 00:32:23:24
And served on the staff,

00:32:23:44 00:32:25:40
obviously, all of them - Lincoln,
Watts, and

00:32:25:60 00:32:27:36
Durham Regional.

00:32:27:64 00:32:30:74
And after I finished all my
training here at Duke,

00:32:30:94 00:32:32:92
to include residence and medicine -

00:32:33:12 00:32:35:48
it's fine I got it
a little turned around.

00:32:35:68 00:32:39:72
I did my internship at DC General
and when I came to Durham,

00:32:39:92 00:32:43:64
I was told by some that my training was
inadequate and I had to start over.

00:32:43:84 00:32:48:00
And I looked at him just like my
commander when I was in the Air Force,

00:32:48:20 00:32:51:80
who was gonna tell me about this regular
commission and all of its benefits and

00:32:52:00 00:32:55:40
depending on who was going
to benefit, as I saw it.

00:32:55:40 00:32:56:76
It's almost like who had the golden rule.

00:32:56:76 00:32:57:80
So they said, "Well you're gonna..."

00:32:57:80 00:32:59:84
And I said "No, I've already
done my internship.

00:33:00:40 00:33:01:76
I'm not going to do a second."

00:33:02:20 00:33:03:41
Which was my first encounter with

00:33:03:47 00:33:06:80
Dr. Eugene A. Stead, Jr. In person,

00:33:06:28 00:33:09:32
because everyone else I had been, was
really his faculty.

00:33:09:52 00:33:11:90
Dr. Chuck Mengel,
whom I didn't mention,

00:33:12:57 00:33:18:83
Dr. Lawrence Frohman, who is an expert in
endocrinology on growth hormone excesses,

00:33:18:84 00:33:22:92
[inaudible] Chicago, and Edward S. Horton,

00:33:23:12 00:33:30:00
who is a specialist in diabetes,
now runs the Joslin Clinic in Boston,

00:33:30:68 00:33:32:00
who were my teachers.

00:33:32:12 00:33:34:12
So I had some access to some of the best

00:33:34:12 00:33:37:28
minds in medicine and a whole other
thing, and they worked you to death.

00:33:37:28 00:33:40:16
But anyway, when they got down internship,
they sent me to see Dr. Stead,

00:33:40:17 00:33:43:12
they always say he's the one
who got everybody straightened out.

00:33:43:32 00:33:45:56
So I came over to Duke and
sit down and meet

00:33:45:56 00:33:47:48
Eugene A. Stead Jr.
whom I had read about.

00:33:47:68 00:33:52:40
So I know about this great wise man,
everbody trembled every time he showed up.

00:33:52:40 00:33:54:59
You all know about Dr. Stead.
Stories about Dr. Stead here

00:33:54:60 00:33:56:92
are so legend that if you listen
to everyone who told you separately

00:33:56:92 00:34:00:00
you'd be shocked at the different stories
you would hear about the same man.

00:34:00:20 00:34:04:28
But all of them would almost tell you
say, yes, I don't wanna go talk to Dr. Stead.

00:34:04:28 00:34:05:72
No I'm gonna stay away from his office.

00:34:05:92 00:34:07:12
It's not too good to do.

00:34:07:12 00:34:09:72
So I went in with trepidation,
not knowing what to expect from this

00:34:09:72 00:34:11:17
person I'm going to meet now,

00:34:11:37 00:34:13:32
since I had said what
I wasn't going to do.

00:34:13:52 00:34:15:36
So he looked at me and he said,
"Good morning, Dr. Johnson."

00:34:15:52 00:34:16:44
"Good Morning," I spoke.
"Good morning."

00:34:16:44 00:34:18:12
"Have a seat."
I sat down.

00:34:18:32 00:34:22:72
"I understand that there's some discussion
about your being, spending your second

00:34:22:92 00:34:24:24
year doing, your second rota-

00:34:24:24 00:34:27:28
doing an internship."
I said, "No, I had no problem with it."

00:34:27:48 00:34:30:56
I said "Somebody else did."
And what did Dr. Stead say?

00:34:30:59 00:34:31:76
Dr. Stead said,

00:34:31:76 00:34:33:88
"I don't blame ya.
I wouldn't do a second one either."

00:34:34:80 00:34:35:96
Absolutely flabbergasted,
relieved,

00:34:36:16 00:34:38:68
that I'm gonna talk to this tremendously

00:34:38:88 00:34:41:80
hostile person who right away agrees
with me and something I said.

00:34:42:00 00:34:44:16
Wow, what magic is this?

00:34:44:16 00:34:45:64
So he'd already captured my imagination,

00:34:45:84 00:34:49:40
you must recognize. He
had me on the first day.

00:34:49:12 00:34:50:92
So I've been a supporter ever since.

00:34:51:12 00:34:53:88
He couldn't do anything wrong for me.

00:34:54:80 00:34:56:24
Everybody else who wanted me
to got a little upset,

00:34:56:44 00:34:58:52
but then what could
they say to Dr. Stead?

00:34:58:69 00:35:00:92
Apparently nothing.
Nobody said anything. Anyway,

00:35:01:12 00:35:05:36
I did not do a second year in internship.
So I did two years of residency,

00:35:05:56 00:35:09:80
in medicine, in the Duke Lincoln system

00:35:10:00 00:35:14:30
and then a fellowship in endocrinology
in 1966, 1967, under

00:35:14:30 00:35:18:20
Dr. Harold Lebovitz and his faculty.

00:35:18:40 00:35:22:34
And then I went out to practice
private practice medicine with

00:35:22:37 00:35:25:80
Dr. Charles Curry,
who is now the Chief of Cardiology

00:35:26:00 00:35:31:40
at Howard University Hospital.
Has been probably since the mid-1960s.

00:35:31:40 00:35:32:36
He want to join J. B. Johnson,

00:35:32:56 00:35:35:59
who was the then only Black
cardiologist in this country.

00:35:35:79 00:35:38:40
Like I said in 1968,
that's not very long ago.

00:35:38:15 00:35:39:00
That's thirty years ago.

00:35:39:00 00:35:41:00
Well we couldn't get in a place
[inaudible] on all that.

00:35:41:20 00:35:43:29
But anyway, Charlie had been trained here,

00:35:43:49 00:35:44:84
by Dr. Greenfield, who many of

00:35:45:40 00:35:49:32
you might know.
Still- he's still here on the faculty,

00:35:49:52 00:35:51:44
and Dr. Curry is still there.

00:35:51:64 00:35:55:36
Dr. Donald T. Moore, who is now deceased,

00:35:55:56 00:35:58:40
was an OB/GYN.
So I went to join

00:35:58:24 00:36:02:80
them, to Lincoln Hospital Private
Diagnostic Clinic, 1967.

00:36:03:20 00:36:07:92
By 1970, after Curry had already gone,
I had worked all those years by myself

00:36:08:12 00:36:12:96
when I was on duty at Lincoln Hospital,
for 24 hours, seven days a week,

00:36:12:96 00:36:15:40
and Dr. Watts kept telling me
much money I was making.

00:36:15:24 00:36:20:14
I said, "But I'm not spending any of it."
[Laughter]

00:36:20:48 00:36:23:52
He said- I said "Where's my help so I
can at least get some rest?"

00:36:23:52 00:36:25:00
I said, "I don't have to answer the phone

00:36:25:20 00:36:29:12
every day, seven days a week,
24 hours a day."

00:36:29:76 00:36:33:12
And I listen to some of your doctors
over here, Dr. Haynes complaining about

00:36:33:12 00:36:36:76
the hours they are working there. They
don't have any idea what work is like.

00:36:36:76 00:36:38:32
Make sure I tell you that. I was on duty

00:36:38:33 00:36:41:45
seven days a week,
24 hours a day for three years.

00:36:41:55 00:36:42:34
[Inaudible]

00:36:42:44 00:36:43:51
Yeah, I'm saying.

00:36:43:51 00:36:44:51
[Inaudible]

00:36:44:56 00:36:47:64
So you know, after the third year
I told Dr. Watts, I said,

00:36:47:64 00:36:49:12
"Even this is just too much for me."

00:36:49:32 00:36:53:56
I said, "It has to stop."
Anyway, by some means,

00:36:53:76 00:36:56:00
that was apparently a miracle,

00:36:56:20 00:37:00:20
Dr. Stead calls me again,
saying, "Come on, it's Dr. Stead."

00:37:00:20 00:37:01:52
I said to myself,
"When am I going to see

00:37:01:53 00:37:03:40
Dr. Stead for?"

00:37:03:72 00:37:06:36
Anyway, when Dr. Stead
wanted, by then

00:37:06:56 00:37:08:42
he was calling me Charlie.

00:37:08:62 00:37:12:44
He said "Charlie come in and
sit down." So I sat down.

00:37:12:64 00:37:18:16
Dr. Stead was not
a person who carried on any small talk.

00:37:18:36 00:37:21:60
Dr. Stead only talked about business.

00:37:21:60 00:37:22:68
If you weren't there to talk business,

00:37:22:68 00:37:23:80
you would not have been in his office.

00:37:23:80 00:37:24:80
So he said very quickly,

00:37:25:00 00:37:26:87
get right to the business, he said,

00:37:27:72 00:37:28:30
"I understand you are fixin'
to leave town."

00:37:28:32 00:37:30:40
Which I was.

00:37:30:24 00:37:35:32
He said, "Well, I'm gonna recruit you
to Duke if you bring your patients

00:37:36:12 00:37:38:40
that you practice in the PDC."

00:37:38:24 00:37:42:80
I said "Dr. Stead, I never
even given a thought to come to Duke.

00:37:42:28 00:37:44:52
Never been a part of my vision,

00:37:44:72 00:37:45:84
hope."

00:37:46:56 00:37:49:25
And I say "I'm not so sure most
of my patients

00:37:49:31 00:37:51:96
really want to be seen at Duke."

00:37:52:12 00:37:53:68
Now I wasn't saying that
because of heresay.

00:37:53:88 00:37:57:19
Most of them had already told me
as they came in the office,

00:37:57:39 00:37:58:52
"Don't send me to Duke."

00:37:58:67 00:37:59:99
[inaudible]

00:38:00:00 00:38:03:12
Duke apparently had amassed a tremendous

00:38:03:32 00:38:07:32
negative reputation for Blacks
in this town

00:38:07:52 00:38:09:28
for abuse and misuse.

00:38:09:68 00:38:11:68
I'm sure some of it perceived,

00:38:11:88 00:38:15:32
but I'm also just as sure
much of it was true.

00:38:16:72 00:38:20:24
Anyway, I said, "Let me write all
my patients

00:38:20:44 00:38:23:20
personally and say to them
what you just offered.

00:38:23:40 00:38:26:74
And I'll let them decide what
they want to do, not what

00:38:26:74 00:38:28:80
Dr. Johnson want to do."

00:38:29:76 00:38:30:92
I wrote them all.

00:38:30:95 00:38:32:20
And they all, I want to say,

00:38:32:40 00:38:37:00
probably other than a few percent, said
they would go to Duke only if they saw me.

00:38:37:20 00:38:38:40
Nobody else.

00:38:38:56 00:38:41:12
And I have a hard time explaining
to my colleagues that my patients came

00:38:41:32 00:38:44:44
to see me not because of Duke,
but because of me.

00:38:44:64 00:38:47:99
[Laughter]

00:38:48:00 00:38:49:56
There's a big difference,

00:38:49:76 00:38:51:24
as my patients saw it.

00:38:51:44 00:38:55:20
They were not coming to Duke
because of its - whatever it could do,

00:38:55:40 00:39:00:16
was not that small amount at all.
And in fact,

00:39:00:16 00:39:03:88
some of the most distinguished Blacks
in Durham refused to come here because

00:39:04:80 00:39:07:80
they had not been given treatment
when they were sick.

00:39:08:44 00:39:13:16
They had to go to the Mayo Clinic or
elsewhere and in fact, they were angry.

00:39:13:36 00:39:14:78
Some of them still are,

00:39:14:78 00:39:17:00
as Dr. Haynes will know,

00:39:17:20 00:39:20:60
found out and told them this anecdotally.

00:39:20:60 00:39:24:00
But anyway, we've had a whole bunch
of difficulties that we've encountered,

00:39:24:20 00:39:26:32
that we've been trying to smooth out

00:39:26:52 00:39:31:16
and get a better perspective on
by performance instead of talk.

00:39:31:48 00:39:33:40
Now if my patients agreed
they would come,

00:39:33:60 00:39:35:68
I decided I would come.
It wasn't that simple,

00:39:35:88 00:39:38:52
but anyway, we came.
Dr. Wyngaarden by then

00:39:38:52 00:39:39:36
had become the chairman of the

00:39:39:36 00:39:41:96
Department of Medicine.
Dr. Stead was [inaudible], whatever.

00:39:41:96 00:39:43:12
And in fact, Dr. Stead stayed there

00:39:43:12 00:39:44:56
so long now I don't ever know who was

00:39:44:76 00:39:46:95
the chairman. Anyway, who was deciding.

00:39:47:15 00:39:49:44
But anyway it was
being decided by somebody.

00:39:49:64 00:39:51:16
Dr. Anlyan was then

00:39:51:44 00:39:52:72
Chancellor for Health Affairs.

00:39:52:72 00:39:54:12
I'm not so sure that was his title then,

00:39:54:12 00:39:55:56
but whatever it was back in those days.

00:39:55:76 00:39:58:40
They change so often every
now and then you get lost.

00:39:58:40 00:40:00:72
That's what the tiles were.
But they were the same person. Dr. Anlyan

00:40:00:92 00:40:05:20
was in charge of the medical staff,
who also was a part of making sure that I

00:40:05:20 00:40:08:20
got here and all of this got set up
to make sure we're doing things.

00:40:08:40 00:40:10:41
So we're doing a PDC,
and for the most part

00:40:10:61 00:40:12:56
everything which smoothly.
Every now and then,

00:40:12:76 00:40:16:52
there were a few errors
committed by some of the

00:40:16:72 00:40:21:00
younger house staff who decided that they
wanted to show some of my patients how

00:40:21:20 00:40:25:20
bright and tough they were, by
saying all kinds of things to them.

00:40:25:40 00:40:28:96
What they did not know was
I was still a fighter pilot

00:40:29:20 00:40:33:48
and I would be in their office,
wherever they were, instantly.

00:40:33:88 00:40:36:16
And what they all learned was they could

00:40:36:36 00:40:40:00
not mess with my patients
without messing with me.

00:40:40:92 00:40:43:80
Now I do not say that with any
degree of hostility.

00:40:43:81 00:40:47:72
I only say it with the respect
that every human being deserves.

00:40:47:92 00:40:51:88
Every human being deserves respect,
whoever they are.

00:40:52:80 00:40:53:60
And when you are sick

00:40:53:92 00:40:57:40
and when you are paying for it,

00:40:57:60 00:41:02:88
for someone to mistreat you
is just inhumane.

00:41:03:80 00:41:05:88
I have never tolerated

00:41:06:80 00:41:09:00
and will never tolerate it

00:41:09:20 00:41:11:28
for any of you, not- whoever you were.

00:41:11:28 00:41:13:68
So I don't want to make you
think it- it's just whoever

00:41:13:88 00:41:15:92
my patient was the same.

00:41:19:56 00:41:21:48
Wasn't many cases where that happened,

00:41:21:48 00:41:24:68
but there were enough that they shouldn't
have happened because of someone's

00:41:24:88 00:41:29:40
insensitivity to other human
beings' cultural needs.

00:41:29:24 00:41:34:96
I have made a strong plea
that we should have some

00:41:35:16 00:41:38:42
cultural relevant teachings
at our institution

00:41:38:42 00:41:41:52
that everyone get a chance
to understand that you cannot treat people

00:41:41:72 00:41:47:43
from India, Pakistan, from
Afghanistan or wherever they come from

00:41:47:44 00:41:52:32
by cultural means,
because you speak the same language.

00:41:52:52 00:41:56:00
Words do not mean the same thing.

00:41:59:40 00:42:03:44
So culture does play an important
part in every person's life.

00:42:03:64 00:42:05:20
And when you are a sick

00:42:06:80 00:42:08:00
a person who has no confidence
in the person

00:42:08:20 00:42:12:48
they're dealing with -
it's a waste of everybody's time.

00:42:13:32 00:42:16:68
They are not taking any of your advice.

00:42:16:83 00:42:18:80
However bright you are,

00:42:18:80 00:42:19:48
and whatever papers you've written

00:42:19:48 00:42:21:80
and whatever discoveries
you've made aside,

00:42:22:00 00:42:24:76
they couldn't care if you never showed up.

00:42:26:80 00:42:31:48
So we need a system in place
at Duke, and other institutions across this

00:42:31:68 00:42:36:92
land that also deal with
people's cultural needs.

00:42:37:88 00:42:39:28
Doesn't mean it has to be-

00:42:39:48 00:42:41:40
that everybody have the same

00:42:41:24 00:42:44:20
group they came from,
but it has to be someone who has some

00:42:44:40 00:42:47:96
sensitivity to the culture
from which they came.

00:42:48:68 00:42:50:84
So I understand that
when they are telling me whatever it is

00:42:51:40 00:42:57:12
in their own idiom, it means to them what
it meant, and not what I thought it meant.

00:42:57:32 00:42:58:80
Never the same.

00:43:01:68 00:43:06:40
And I assure you that right now,
in somebody's office,

00:43:06:60 00:43:08:00
this

00:43:09:40 00:43:13:12
multicultural proposal is being

00:43:13:56 00:43:18:68
created to be launched at Duke in 1999.

00:43:18:88 00:43:21:76
Now that's a long time from 1970,

00:43:21:96 00:43:24:96
but at least we finally got it.

00:43:24:99 00:43:26:40
Could have given up.

00:43:26:24 00:43:28:16
Could have given out, could have quit.

00:43:28:36 00:43:30:44
Could have stopped haranguing, folks.
Like Dr. Haynes,

00:43:30:59 00:43:33:24
I'm sure he'd- they'd be so glad
to get me out of their office.

00:43:33:24 00:43:34:52
They'd say "Yes, we'll do anything.

00:43:34:72 00:43:36:12
Just leave."

00:43:36:12 00:43:40:70
[Laughter]

00:43:40:72 00:43:42:92
So I'm very persistent.

00:43:42:92 00:43:45:24
And I don't go every day to bother him
but every time I got the opportunity

00:43:45:40 00:43:47:56
I would say "But what about this?"
And he'd say "But what about it?"

00:43:47:56 00:43:50:32
I said, "No, I don't want to keep
repeating each other's questions.

00:43:50:52 00:43:51:60
'What about it.' I mean

00:43:51:80 00:43:54:96
what are we doing about it?"
I'm truly - I was somebody of action.

00:43:54:96 00:43:56:68
I didn't like to spend
a lot of time talking.

00:43:56:88 00:43:58:76
I like to get things done.

00:43:59:40 00:44:01:92
And we are slowly getting it done.

00:44:02:12 00:44:06:84
So it has been quite an education for me.

00:44:07:40 00:44:09:16
And I hope for some of you who have met me

00:44:09:36 00:44:12:00
along the halls, has been
an education for you.

00:44:12:20 00:44:16:20
Because everything I have ever done,
I have always done it with the notion

00:44:16:40 00:44:19:72
that it would be
with the best and most excellent way

00:44:19:92 00:44:23:56
in which I could do it,
in hopes that each of you would be just as

00:44:23:70 00:44:26:40
pleased and happy if I was
doing it for you or whoever

00:44:26:51 00:44:29:85
when you saw me. Never ask questions
and all "Who said- said-? Did they say

00:44:29:85 00:44:34:28
Dr. Johnson?" They say
"Well no, we know it's all right."

00:44:35:68 00:44:37:64
Someone told me that,

00:44:38:16 00:44:42:40
you know, every day you wake up
and walk out into the street,

00:44:42:60 00:44:46:36
your self portrait
immediately becomes evident

00:44:46:56 00:44:49:80
and you want to make sure that the
stamp you're leaving

00:44:49:80 00:44:52:16
is the one you wanted to see.

00:44:52:56 00:44:53:52
Every day.

00:44:53:72 00:44:58:68
Not one day, not every other day,
every day. So every day

00:44:58:88 00:45:02:76
I would wake with the same desire

00:45:02:96 00:45:05:80
to get the same thing
accomplished as the day before.

00:45:06:00 00:45:08:13
So the day you saw me, and keep looking
at me and say

00:45:08:33 00:45:09:40
"I don't understand how this guy

00:45:09:56 00:45:11:96
can stay up all night long
and come back to work."

00:45:12:16 00:45:13:80
I've never needed sleep.

00:45:14:80 00:45:15:48
Don't ask me why.

00:45:15:55 00:45:17:80
You know, I was reading
a story some time ago, and

00:45:17:80 00:45:19:16
I was shocked to find other people

00:45:19:36 00:45:22:60
that Ralph Bunche was one
of the ambassadors at the United Nations,

00:45:22:80 00:45:25:96
that many of you who can
think back that far.

00:45:26:16 00:45:28:15
Someone was asking him on a TV talk show

00:45:28:15 00:45:31:00
and they said, they say,
"Ambassador Bunche,

00:45:31:00 00:45:32:80
we don't understand how you can stay up

00:45:33:00 00:45:35:72
all night and every day we
see you functioning so well."

00:45:35:92 00:45:37:66
He said "I don't need to sleep."

00:45:37:86 00:45:39:92
But I knew I didn't need sleep.

00:45:42:20 00:45:43:90
I could go to bed one or two o'clock
in the morning,

00:45:43:90 00:45:45:48
be up at five, and run just as

00:45:45:68 00:45:48:88
hard the next day as I did the day
before and never slow down.

00:45:49:80 00:45:49:96
Dr. Stead, and
I'm sure Dr. Haynes

00:45:49:96 00:45:52:43
but I could just name a whole
bunch of them, I don't think

00:45:52:71 00:45:54:82
Dr. Stead ever slept.
At least the house there would tell you

00:45:55:27 00:45:58:00
he never slept because every time they
turned around he was always in the halls

00:45:58:00 00:46:00:56
and they were trying to figure
out where he came from.

00:46:00:56 00:46:03:88
So people who were getting things done, if
you found out, they don't ever sleep.

00:46:04:80 00:46:07:60
And even when you think
they're asleep, they aren't asleep,

00:46:07:80 00:46:09:60
they're quietly thinking

00:46:09:80 00:46:14:12
of how to get to the next level of
whatever it is that they are working on.

00:46:14:32 00:46:18:00
So those who sleep,
you'll be shocked to find out when you

00:46:18:20 00:46:21:60
wake up, your peers would
have run away and left you.

00:46:22:40 00:46:23:76
Used to tell my kids all the time,

00:46:23:96 00:46:25:58
I'd say "In this race that you're in now

00:46:25:58 00:46:27:48
you can remember you can't sleep,

00:46:27:68 00:46:29:16
can't tell me you're tired,

00:46:29:36 00:46:31:00
can't tell me you've given out."

00:46:32:72 00:46:34:24
I said, "Keep running.

00:46:34:44 00:46:36:24
Wherever you find the energy."

00:46:37:36 00:46:38:96
Gregory knows, my son over there
I told one thing,

00:46:39:16 00:46:42:72
I said "I can't imagine you
sleeping your time away,

00:46:43:32 00:46:44:68
because the world will
have gone off and left you

00:46:44:68 00:46:46:12
and you wake up in the morning
and figure out

00:46:46:25 00:46:47:80
Where am I now?'"
I said "Well, it's too late.

00:46:47:80 00:46:49:78
Everybody you want to ask
the question already left you and you

00:46:49:78 00:46:51:92
get the wrong answer."

00:46:51:95 00:46:56:80
[laughter]
So

00:46:56:28 00:46:58:80
my education has been a rather unique one

00:46:58:80 00:47:01:68
in the sense that my parents,
like my teachers, always thought of me as

00:47:01:88 00:47:04:52
somewhat of a - I don't know what
kind of kid you'd call me.

00:47:04:72 00:47:06:44
I was always into things.

00:47:06:64 00:47:10:88
I got a lot of spankings and whippin's
and I was always exploring things.

00:47:11:80 00:47:15:92
I mean, I was never content
to just be calm and quiet.

00:47:16:12 00:47:19:60
I was always tinkering with things,

00:47:19:80 00:47:23:88
and I still do. No,

00:47:23:88 00:47:26:40
but I'm just saying
I don't know where it came from.

00:47:26:60 00:47:28:48
You know, I guess you're born with that.

00:47:28:48 00:47:30:32
I've never had chance to ask of experts

00:47:30:52 00:47:32:68
how you learn things like that.

00:47:32:68 00:47:34:32
But I'm sure it must be something

00:47:34:52 00:47:37:38
'cause I'm sure a lot of
folks who possess it,

00:47:37:58 00:47:40:00
and you're busy trying to get things done.

00:47:40:20 00:47:46:36
You hate to see so much of your time idle
when you can be getting things done.

00:47:46:40 00:47:48:84
I'm going to stop.
I don't know how I'm to go on,

00:47:49:40 00:47:51:63
but in case somebody
want to ask a question or two

00:47:51:83 00:47:52:72
that wasn't in there,

00:47:52:72 00:47:55:68
but I'd be glad to try to entertain
any questions if anyone had any

00:47:55:88 00:47:58:32
specific ones at all,
interest in asking.

00:47:58:32 00:47:59:68
And if it's something I didn't cover,

00:47:59:88 00:48:01:44
something I should speak to,

00:48:01:68 00:48:04:56
a particular interest in, Dr Haynes.

00:48:04:74 00:48:07:71
- You talked about when you came down

00:48:07:72 00:48:11:25
and you joined the
residents at Lincoln...

00:48:11:72 00:48:13:40
- Yes.

00:48:13:85 00:48:15:30
- Could you talk just a little -

00:48:15:50 00:48:17:29
I'm not aware
of what it was like and,

00:48:17:43 00:48:20:45
I've not read anything
[inaudible]

00:48:20:48 00:48:23:54
What was it like to be a
house doctor in that program?

00:48:24:34 00:48:26:54
Were there rounds every day
by Duke doctors

00:48:26:54 00:48:29:43
[inaudible]

00:48:29:44 00:48:30:68
- Rounds, depending upon the number

00:48:30:72 00:48:35:44
of patients that were then on active
service at Lincoln Hospital.

00:48:35:44 00:48:36:64
And that included all
the patients whether on

00:48:36:84 00:48:40:00
medicine or surgery,
because most of the patients,

00:48:40:60 00:48:42:36
even the ones on surgery,
had medical problems.

00:48:42:36 00:48:43:80
As you well know, most Black folks who got

00:48:43:94 00:48:46:64
ill are unlikely to have
simple things wrong with them.

00:48:46:84 00:48:49:56
The mostly to extensions of things

00:48:49:76 00:48:52:84
that almost always require
an internist to be in assistance,

00:48:53:40 00:48:55:29
and almost all there was.
There was a pediatric unit, to which

00:48:55:57 00:48:57:93
Dr. -whew- Cleland,

00:48:58:13 00:48:58:88
many of you know.

00:48:59:82 00:49:01:44
Probably took care of some of
your children, who was taking

00:49:01:64 00:49:05:52
care of pediatric kids, in medicine.
And depending on number of patients,

00:49:05:72 00:49:09:60
and this fluctuated depending upon
the season, the year,

00:49:09:80 00:49:11:60
and I'm sure a lot of other things.

00:49:11:96 00:49:14:80
Most Black folks knew they
could not be sick.

00:49:14:80 00:49:16:55
And

00:49:16:56 00:49:20:20
I used to ask, "Why can't you be sick?"

00:49:20:20 00:49:21:24
And they could never tell me.

00:49:21:24 00:49:23:40
But I'm sure if I went back historically

00:49:23:24 00:49:28:68
to slavery, I'd say to you "Ol' massa
never tolerated illness or sickness."

00:49:28:88 00:49:33:16
And I'm sure it was a teaching
of parents that you couldn't be sick.

00:49:33:36 00:49:36:99
And I'm sure that people who
finally got to the hospital

00:49:37:19 00:49:38:68
always were terribly sick.

00:49:38:81 00:49:39:96
They weren't just sick.

00:49:40:16 00:49:42:64
Everything was wrong. Then,

00:49:42:84 00:49:44:72
the faculty came every day.

00:49:45:40 00:49:48:76
The house staff, of which there were
always at least two of us,

00:49:50:20 00:49:53:84
had to work almost 24 hours a day
because we had to do everything.

00:49:53:84 00:49:56:62
Unlike the house staff now
you have, what, an I.V. team

00:49:56:26 00:49:58:80
who go draw blood, they're gonna
send off stuff to the lab, all this.

00:49:59:00 00:50:01:00
No, we were everything.

00:50:01:00 00:50:02:48
You had to draw blood to get medicine.

00:50:02:56 00:50:04:24
You had to start I.V.s.
Yeah, right.

00:50:04:24 00:50:05:48
Go down to the emergency room,

00:50:05:48 00:50:07:48
take care of
the patients there, suture them up.

00:50:07:68 00:50:13:16
So we were always busy
taking care of the sick and distressed.

00:50:13:36 00:50:15:40
And even those who were mentally sick,

00:50:15:60 00:50:18:16
thought they had problems
for whatever reason.

00:50:18:16 00:50:22:40
And they gave rounds the same as
they had rounds on the wards here at Duke.

00:50:22:80 00:50:25:72
I mean, you know,
we really had to be ready at seven o'clock

00:50:25:92 00:50:30:44
in the morning to present your patient
to the attending in its entirety.

00:50:30:64 00:50:32:96
No partial presentation.

00:50:33:16 00:50:36:80
Every slide had to be made and perfect,
with the stains,

00:50:37:00 00:50:38:10
for them to see too.

00:50:38:30 00:50:41:40
Wasn't enough be telling
someone, "Here this is what I did."

00:50:41:60 00:50:43:40
They said "No, I want to see it."

00:50:44:80 00:50:46:16
You had to produce it.

00:50:46:52 00:50:47:52
If you said EKG,

00:50:47:72 00:50:51:80
showed these changes yourself,
which meant I would have come over here

00:50:51:80 00:50:54:76
and found somebody in cardiology,
have read it for me and I go back over.

00:50:54:77 00:50:55:84
When the person come, they didn't
know I've done that,

00:50:56:40 00:50:58:28
so I'm ready to get them too,

00:50:58:48 00:51:00:36
so they don't know what's happening, no.

00:51:00:48 00:51:02:74
Hey, see you have to learn
whatever you learn whenever you can.

00:51:02:74 00:51:04:40
So you can't ask
a person to waste time.

00:51:04:44 00:51:07:44
See, everybody I have found
will help you if you help yourself.

00:51:07:64 00:51:09:20
I've always found that to be true.

00:51:09:40 00:51:10:72
You go ask them, they'll tell you.

00:51:10:73 00:51:12:48
Don't ask them they
won't tell you anything.

00:51:12:68 00:51:14:64
So we come ask and they tell us.

00:51:14:84 00:51:17:72
So we'd come out and make rounds,
and they'd go

00:51:17:92 00:51:20:92
see the patient, examine them themselves,

00:51:20:92 00:51:22:52
make sure that whatever
you said was correct.

00:51:22:72 00:51:27:96
If not, then they made sure whatever was
left out was taken care of adequately.

00:51:28:90 00:51:29:44
That really was tantamount,

00:51:29:44 00:51:31:88
I would say to you, as presenting
patients on your wards

00:51:32:80 00:51:36:36
now, in terms of the training. It
was under Dr. Stead's leadership,

00:51:36:56 00:51:38:76
through some grant
from the Duke Foundation,

00:51:38:76 00:51:40:00
I can't get into all that probably.

00:51:40:20 00:51:42:60
Have to ask Dr. Watts
which I have not done.

00:51:42:60 00:51:45:28
Bring up the question might be
a good - how it formally got started.

00:51:45:48 00:51:49:64
I'm sure some of this is written down
someplace because there were funds dealing

00:51:49:64 00:51:52:92
with this because of how people were
coming down, how it was being paid.

00:51:53:12 00:51:57:68
Duke was granting all of the degrees
in the sense that it was using its name,

00:51:57:68 00:51:59:80
therefore, they were making sure if they

00:51:59:80 00:52:00:88
were using their name,
they put their stamp on it,

00:52:00:88 00:52:03:92
which as I was talking about earlier,
that somebody had already forgotten about.

00:52:04:12 00:52:07:88
They want to make sure the stamp was
the right one, not the wrong one.

00:52:08:80 00:52:10:40
Stamp you as a negative product
and get rid of you,

00:52:10:60 00:52:14:40
a positive product and kept you, see?
Very simple.

00:52:14:24 00:52:16:50
And Dr. Chuck Mengel,

00:52:16:50 00:52:18:96
Dr. Mengel - you ever hear Dr. Mengel?

00:52:18:98 00:52:20:71
-I never met him.

00:52:20:12 00:52:23:60
- Dr. Mengel was Dr. Stead's
alter ego.

00:52:23:80 00:52:25:80
Absolute.
I mean.

00:52:25:80 00:52:26:92
Yes, sir.
No, sir.

00:52:27:12 00:52:28:64
No excuse sir.

00:52:30:56 00:52:32:16
Could not tell the man nothing

00:52:32:36 00:52:34:64
but you got the patient ready
or he's not ready.

00:52:34:64 00:52:36:40
If he wasn't ready he wanted to know
why wasn't he ready.

00:52:36:40 00:52:37:17
You hear what I'm saying?

00:52:37:17 00:52:38:92
You had to explain
that to a person you couldn't do that

00:52:39:12 00:52:42:72
but once. You recognized
that would be a fiasco

00:52:42:92 00:52:46:40
all down the drain and tube and
you'd be washed out.

00:52:46:84 00:52:50:52
So you had a director of a program who

00:52:50:52 00:52:51:88
Dr. Stead had absolute confidence

00:52:52:80 00:52:54:72
in because he knew
he was not going to allow even

00:52:54:92 00:53:00:60
the smallest errors to exist,
to their knowledge.

00:53:00:80 00:53:04:44
Had to spend a lot
of time in this building.

00:53:05:56 00:53:07:88
Ms. Porter, wherever she is.

00:53:08:24 00:53:10:44
I've got familiar with this
building over the years,

00:53:10:64 00:53:11:76
and I can just tell you almost,

00:53:11:76 00:53:13:12
they've changed where everything is

00:53:13:32 00:53:17:84
because I spent a lot of nights here
looking up references

00:53:18:40 00:53:21:30
all kinds of information to make
sure that when Dr. Mengel,

00:53:21:30 00:53:25:28
Dr. Frohman,

00:53:25:48 00:53:28:37
Dr. Horton and occasionally some
of the senior staff came like,

00:53:28:57 00:53:29:57
Dr. -

00:53:31:32 00:53:37:55
the hematologist who is now working with
the aged out at Northgate

00:53:37:55 00:53:39:44
[inaudible] - Silverman.

00:53:39:64 00:53:41:36
Silverman used to come up

00:53:41:56 00:53:46:24
for people who had hematologic problems,
or hematologic cancers,

00:53:46:44 00:53:47:32
either one.

00:53:47:32 00:53:50:76
So the program was really well structured
and well run in a sense of how

00:53:50:76 00:53:54:28
it operated depending on how many patients
were there in terms of whether they came

00:53:54:29 00:53:56:84
every day, whether they came
every other day, or every three days,

00:53:56:84 00:53:58:44
or if you called to ask
someone to come out

00:53:58:64 00:54:02:88
to help you in case you needed them,
basically that's how it worked, really.

00:54:03:80 00:54:07:88
And it ran really from somewhere in the

00:54:08:80 00:54:14:40
early 60s, really
until Lincoln Hospital closed in 1977.

00:54:15:88 00:54:18:56
There was never a similar
program on the other side of town.

00:54:18:56 00:54:20:56
I guess [inaudible 00:54:19]  and
get into all - that's

00:54:20:56 00:54:23:48
another part of the history,
but I'm sure somewhere in asking your

00:54:23:68 00:54:27:76
question, there was a structured,
written down agreement between

00:54:27:96 00:54:30:34
Duke Endowment, Duke University Hospital,

00:54:30:54 00:54:32:84
a medical center,
and the Lincoln Hospital,

00:54:33:40 00:54:35:56
and Howard. It was not just
simple, just these two.

00:54:35:76 00:54:37:38
Howard was involved in it as well.

00:54:37:90 00:54:41:56
Dr. [inaudible 00:54:38] was sending house
staff down as well.

00:54:41:56 00:54:44:24
In fact, that's really how I knew about
the program. I really didn't put that in.

00:54:44:44 00:54:45:48
I should have. How I

00:54:45:48 00:54:48:96
first learned about Duke Lincoln program
was the chief resident of medicine for me

00:54:48:96 00:54:50:55
when I was an intern
at D.C. General with

00:54:50:55 00:54:52:38
Dr. John Algy.

00:54:52:38 00:54:54:87
Dr. John Algy had rotated through the

00:54:54:88 00:54:56:56
Lincoln Hospital system and
had told me, he said

00:54:56:56 00:54:58:72
"If you're going back south," he said

00:54:58:73 00:55:03:36
"the best place to go is to
Lincoln Hospital because Duke runs it."

00:55:04:44 00:55:07:24
So it was not again, without so -

00:55:07:24 00:55:09:92
I'm saying this in reverse because someone -
I was asked it. I know beforehand

00:55:10:12 00:55:13:80
the answer's yes, I already knew.
I was not taking a chance again that I'd,

00:55:14:00 00:55:17:92
I'd stumble into something instead
of knowing it already existed.

00:55:18:28 00:55:24:40
I was not very much for doing the things
that I was not aware of myself. Sometimes.

00:55:24:60 00:55:27:51
Any other questions? Anybody - did I
answer your question? Make sure.

00:55:27:51 00:55:29:31
- Yes sir.
- Yes ma'am?

00:55:29:31 00:55:33:11
- I'm just asking a question because of
your connection with both Howard and Duke

00:55:33:11 00:55:34:12
- Okay

00:55:34:13 00:55:38:42
- As a Black medical student I think
every medical student has probably heard

00:55:38:43 00:55:42:57
the story about Dr. Drew and the car
accident that happened in North Carolina,

00:55:42:58 00:55:44:34
and I've heard some different
accounts of it and

00:55:44:34 00:55:47:00
just wanted to know what your
perspective [inaudible]

00:55:47:20 00:55:48:82
exactly what happened.

00:55:48:82 00:55:51:20
- Well, let me give you
the absolute truth.

00:55:51:20 00:55:52:92
This question has been
raised so many times.

00:55:53:12 00:55:56:56
About five years ago, Dr. Watts
who is a distinguished surgeon,

00:55:56:56 00:55:57:72
and also, remember,

00:55:57:73 00:56:00:41
Dr. Drew -
he was Dr. Drew's

00:56:00:42 00:56:02:20
chief resident of surgery.
You might not have known that,

00:56:02:40 00:56:04:86
but I'll just tell you.
So, you know, he knew

00:56:04:11 00:56:05:84
Dr. Drew very well.

00:56:06:40 00:56:09:80
Had great respect
and admiration for him.

00:56:09:90 00:56:11:40
He really researched the project in its

00:56:11:19 00:56:14:84
entirety and came out about five years
ago and said none of that was true.

00:56:15:40 00:56:19:52
He got every care that he should
have received at the time

00:56:19:52 00:56:22:56
he should have received it and
by the people who should have given it.

00:56:22:56 00:56:25:24
Those were Dr. Watts' words.
Now I've been knowing Dr. Watts

00:56:25:25 00:56:26:56
[inaudible] Let me you.

00:56:26:56 00:56:28:24
Dr. Watts was like Dr. Stead.

00:56:29:80 00:56:33:72
He says what he means and he means
what he says. Hear what I'm saying?

00:56:36:12 00:56:38:38
So for me, that was the end of the
discussion.

00:56:38:58 00:56:39:96
If he says that's what happened,

00:56:40:16 00:56:42:40
I know that's what happened.

00:56:42:24 00:56:46:36
Otherwise, he would have
said whatever else it was too.

00:56:48:36 00:56:49:68
But there had been so many different

00:56:49:68 00:56:52:12
stories, which I had heard.
I came up, asking myself.

00:56:52:12 00:56:54:29
You know, I'm really tired of trying
to figure out

00:56:54:30 00:56:55:75
what happened to Dr. Drew.

00:56:55:76 00:56:59:52
And he found out all the details and they
are published and really written down,

00:56:59:52 00:57:01:52
so it's not just my word, if you want
to go read it,

00:57:01:72 00:57:02:60
but I'm just saying to you -

00:57:02:80 00:57:04:88
about five years ago that was put to rest.

00:57:05:10 00:57:06:36
It had been a long, long,

00:57:06:56 00:57:10:80
long historical harangue
that went on and never ended

00:57:10:28 00:57:11:56
until then.

00:57:11:76 00:57:14:48
To those who don't know,
Dr. Drew,

00:57:14:68 00:57:18:16
who was then the chief of surgery
at Howard, was in route to Tuskegee,

00:57:19:00 00:57:22:96
to a meeting and on Highway
49 somewhere off in

00:57:23:16 00:57:25:80
Greensboro, which I'm not
too familiar with -

00:57:25:80 00:57:26:64
some of you might be from the area

00:57:26:84 00:57:29:60
and might know - and had
an accident in a car

00:57:29:80 00:57:31:20
and was seriously injured,

00:57:31:40 00:57:32:76
whatever went wrong.

00:57:32:96 00:57:35:84
And apparently he had a lot of bleeding.

00:57:35:84 00:57:37:36
Reason this came up is because,

00:57:37:46 00:57:39:40
obviously, those, again,
might not know

00:57:39:40 00:57:40:48
Dr. Drew was the person what-

00:57:40:68 00:57:45:12
who discovered how to make blood plasma
available to be used in World War II.

00:57:45:32 00:57:49:16
So you know why all of this
tremendous interest in this man's life.

00:57:49:36 00:57:50:68
That's the way it was,

00:57:50:88 00:57:52:44
to answer your question.

00:57:52:64 00:57:59:87
[audio distorts, cuts out]

00:57:59:92 00:58:02:96
... he really got the property.

00:58:03:15 00:58:06:22
Does that answer your question?
Any other questions? Yes ma'am.

00:58:06:24 00:58:07:75
- Dr. Johnson you mentioned

00:58:07:75 00:58:08:98
[inaudible]

00:58:08:98 00:58:13:72
about Duke [inaudible]

00:58:13:72 00:58:14:67
- Yes.

00:58:14:68 00:58:17:95
[inaudible]

00:58:17:96 00:58:19:57
- I didn't hear the question.

00:58:19:58 00:58:21:70
- Is it also true that you're
a [inaudible]

00:58:21:72 00:58:24:20
- Well, let me say this.

00:58:24:40 00:58:29:32
Most of the people and patients I knew
never went to either one of those systems.

00:58:29:52 00:58:31:52
Again, I come back to say to you,

00:58:31:59 00:58:35:24
Black folks were very acutely aware
of the fact where they weren't wanted.

00:58:35:44 00:58:40:32
And in most cases wouldn't go
unless there was an absolute necessity.

00:58:40:52 00:58:44:28
Watts Hospital never cared for Black
folks and they never went there.

00:58:44:92 00:58:46:16
All right?

00:58:46:31 00:58:47:56
And to answer your question

00:58:47:75 00:58:51:60
UNC I couldn't answer it completely
because none of the patients whom I had

00:58:51:80 00:58:55:16
the responsiblilty for were ever
patients at the UNC hospital.

00:58:55:36 00:58:57:72
So I can't myself answer that truthfully

00:58:57:72 00:58:58:96
and I don't want to comment on that.

00:58:59:16 00:59:03:40
But I do know about Watts Hospital.
Watts never took care of Black [inaudible].

00:59:03:24 00:59:07:24
Doctors at Watts Hospital would come
to Lincoln Hospital to take it.

00:59:07:44 00:59:13:16
Tobacco company had a lot of employees
whose insurance paid for their healthcare.

00:59:13:36 00:59:15:72
But the doctors at Watts Hospital,

00:59:15:72 00:59:18:64
who apparently was tied to the contract -
now I'm saying that without knowledge,

00:59:18:84 00:59:21:96
again, I'm assuming that since that was

00:59:22:16 00:59:24:92
give and take - that they came
to Lincoln Hospital

00:59:24:92 00:59:26:80
from Watts Hospital
to take care of the Black

00:59:27:00 00:59:31:76
people who worked for American and
Liggett, [inaudible] right?

00:59:33:32 00:59:35:88
But not reverse.

00:59:43:88 00:59:44:72
Question?

00:59:44:75 00:59:46:67
- [inaudible] how they did that.

00:59:46:68 00:59:48:41
- How do you mean how they did what?

00:59:48:61 00:59:52:45
- Why would they be serving
the patients at- at Lincoln?

00:59:52:48 00:59:54:40
- Well,

00:59:54:36 00:59:56:28
you have to remember,

00:59:56:48 00:59:57:68
let me say this.

00:59:57:88 01:00:02:44
You know, I've always had this
tremendous interest in the Duke Trust

01:00:02:44 01:00:05:16
and might be taking away if you have
not read the Duke Trust, the [inaudible]

01:00:05:35 01:00:08:60
if you go look on the wall in the
School of Medicine, there's a great big

01:00:08:80 01:00:11:36
framed [inaudible] about James B.

01:00:11:56 01:00:14:36
Duke's trust and the indenture
to this institution.

01:00:14:36 01:00:15:64
You know I don't see any place in there

01:00:15:84 01:00:17:56
where it say anything about race.

01:00:17:76 01:00:18:84
I do not.

01:00:19:28 01:00:21:40
Somebody else might have.

01:00:21:40 01:00:22:72
And I want to say that because I don't

01:00:22:72 01:00:25:92
really think the Dukes ever intended
necessarily for it to be racial and

01:00:26:12 01:00:28:28
I think, in answering your question,

01:00:28:36 01:00:31:25
it was the Dukes' money
that built Lincoln Hospital because

01:00:31:25 01:00:33:34
Dr. Moore -
I was trying not to get into all

01:00:33:34 01:00:38:12
of the history of [inaudible],
who built that hospital,

01:00:38:32 01:00:39:40
you know what I'm saying?

01:00:39:80 01:00:42:92
They had everything else in Durham,
I assume, as they have money,

01:00:43:12 01:00:46:80
so whatever they said
I'm sure got done.

01:00:46:80 01:00:47:84
You know the Black man
who built this institution,

01:00:48:40 01:00:50:28
it was the Duke family who had

01:00:50:48 01:00:54:28
Julian Abele to build all all of that
West Campus that white folks never knew.

01:00:54:48 01:00:57:40
A Black man built. You're an engineer.

01:00:57:24 01:00:58:57
Did you know that?

01:00:58:58 01:00:59:17
[inaudible]

01:00:59:28 01:01:01:72
It's a secret, isn't it?

01:01:03:52 01:01:09:68
It was a Black man who was the architect
of the entire West Campus.

01:01:15:40 01:01:18:56
See, you know
our system of growing up has

01:01:18:76 01:01:23:96
been so closed that many of us don't
even know what the true facts were.

01:01:23:96 01:01:26:92
So I'm sure that if the Dukes said
anything, it was their money,

01:01:27:12 01:01:29:40
who was going to tell them not to do it?

01:01:29:60 01:01:30:80
I'm just saying to you.

01:01:30:88 01:01:32:68
So I'm sure whatever they said about

01:01:32:88 01:01:35:56
whatever the employees
did, it was their employees.

01:01:35:76 01:01:37:72
They owned the tobacco company.

01:01:38:24 01:01:39:80
Am I answering your question?

01:01:39:80 01:01:43:40
So I'm sure they said, you know,
"You go take care of patients over there."

01:01:43:60 01:01:45:40
And I'm sure that's what they did.

01:01:46:28 01:01:47:54
I mean, if they wanted to stay in Durham.

01:01:47:74 01:01:48:88
Now you could
not want to take care of them

01:01:49:80 01:01:51:88
and I'm sure they sent you away then,

01:01:52:80 01:01:53:69
you know what I'm saying?

01:01:53:89 01:01:56:72
The old south was very,
very rigid in discipline.

01:01:56:92 01:01:59:76
Either you toed the line
or they got rid of you.

01:01:59:96 01:02:01:60
White or Black, didn't matter.

01:02:05:52 01:02:08:80
So, you know, to me,
it would be as simple as that.

01:02:08:28 01:02:09:88
So I somehow think the Dukes

01:02:10:80 01:02:12:60
were the origin of all these things
and albeit

01:02:12:80 01:02:13:96
never said,

01:02:14:16 01:02:19:32
I'm still sure that that's why Ms. Semans
has been so actively a part

01:02:19:52 01:02:22:84
of it that you didn't see or know about.
Ms. Semans is almost

01:02:23:40 01:02:25:40
in everything that you did know about.

01:02:25:48 01:02:28:14
Is she a Duke or isn't she?

01:02:28:77 01:02:30:15
She's a Duke.

01:02:30:96 01:02:33:40
Why do you think she's interested?

01:02:33:92 01:02:35:68
I think the family had an interest.

01:02:35:87 01:02:38:38
I'm just- that's my take Dr. Haynes.

01:02:38:40 01:02:42:20
I'm just saying if you were to ask
me, I really think it was always intended.

01:02:42:20 01:02:43:72
Otherwise, they would have specified.

01:02:43:77 01:02:46:72
I don't think they specified
because they never intended to.

01:02:46:92 01:02:51:76
Because you knew at some day certain what
we are now seeing would have changed

01:02:51:88 01:02:53:28
and it all had to be erased

01:02:53:48 01:02:54:72
and done over.

01:02:57:42 01:03:00:32
[Laughter]

01:03:00:36 01:03:01:25
Yes ma'am?

01:03:01:38 01:03:15:12
[inaudible]

01:03:16:96 01:03:18:32
No.

01:03:18:41 01:03:19:96
Never tried to break them away.

01:03:20:16 01:03:21:76
And I say that-

01:03:22:72 01:03:25:76
Once the person has a structured system

01:03:26:28 01:03:29:68
in their life in terms
of what it means to them,

01:03:29:68 01:03:31:32
I think it would be more destructive

01:03:31:52 01:03:37:80
to try to take it away than to make
whatever you do fit into what they do.

01:03:37:80 01:03:38:60
Now and to answer your question and
I'll give you an

01:03:38:80 01:03:41:52
example, a lady
came to see me from Hillsborough

01:03:41:72 01:03:45:36
who was in her 80s.
Had been a schoolteacher, retired.

01:03:45:56 01:03:48:64
Very, very young looking,
active, still very alert.

01:03:48:84 01:03:52:20
And she brought with her a half pint

01:03:52:20 01:03:53:66
clear liquid with a black dot in it,

01:03:53:66 01:03:54:80
which I couldn't make out what it was.

01:03:54:80 01:03:55:84
Don't ask me what it was.

01:03:55:98 01:03:58:88
She told me someone put a hex on,
and she wanted me to help her

01:03:59:80 01:04:00:20
get it off.

01:04:00:34 01:04:01:64
That's what you're asking -

01:04:01:64 01:04:02:88
so how you deal with it, you know.
Tell her

01:04:02:88 01:04:03:72
she's crazy,
go away.

01:04:03:72 01:04:04:28
Don't do that.

01:04:04:48 01:04:11:56
No, I sat her down and ask her
who was the person who was hexing her.

01:04:12:40 01:04:13:64
She told me.

01:04:14:48 01:04:16:48
And I found a remedy for that.

01:04:16:68 01:04:18:65
And I told her, I said,
"Well, I say what you do."

01:04:18:65 01:04:21:56
I said "You leave this bottle with me,

01:04:22:92 01:04:24:68
and when you go back home,

01:04:24:88 01:04:27:80
what you have found out is
that your hex will be gone."

01:04:29:56 01:04:31:52
Now, I must tell you, in all fairness,

01:04:31:72 01:04:35:91
I started getting more patients
who wanted hexes removed.

01:04:35:91 01:04:41:95
[laughter]

01:04:42:00 01:04:44:76
So this lady from Durham came
to see me in town and

01:04:44:96 01:04:49:16
she said, "You know, my cousin
has put a root under my bed,

01:04:49:36 01:04:51:32
and it's put a hex on me."

01:04:51:52 01:04:54:28
And I say, "I see.

01:04:54:48 01:04:58:80
Well, let's see if we can
think up a remedy for root

01:04:58:28 01:05:00:48
that's gonna put a hex under your bed."

01:05:00:68 01:05:02:32
So I said I know I went too fast.

01:05:02:32 01:05:03:44
I didn't want her to think

01:05:03:64 01:05:04:84
that I had to [inaudible]

01:05:05:36 01:05:06:31
think about it.

01:05:06:51 01:05:09:24
I said, "You know,"
I said, "do you have a broom at home?"

01:05:09:48 01:05:12:60
She said, "Yes, I have a broom."

01:05:12:80 01:05:14:36
I said "I tell you what you do."

01:05:14:56 01:05:17:48
I said "You go back home, get your broom,

01:05:18:56 01:05:21:76
sweep the root from out of the bed
and all the way through your house,

01:05:21:77 01:05:23:52
and sweep it out of your back door

01:05:23:72 01:05:26:96
and on to the ground
and your hex will be gone."

01:05:27:16 01:05:29:88
Lady called me up the next day
and told me, said "Doctor Thompson

01:05:30:80 01:05:33:80
I'm so glad you relieved my hex."

01:05:35:28 01:05:39:20
Now to have set there and told
either one of those people

01:05:39:40 01:05:46:00
how absurd it was to have formulated,
structurally all of those things,

01:05:46:20 01:05:49:72
first, they'd have been so mad and angry,

01:05:49:92 01:05:54:32
they'd have said how ignorant I
was and they'd have been right.

01:05:54:52 01:05:58:40
Ignorant in the sense that I
didn't appreciate their dilemma

01:05:58:60 01:06:03:56
sufficiently to help
them get relief from it.

01:06:04:12 01:06:07:72
And whereas I didn't
teach to use the roots,

01:06:07:88 01:06:09:88
I didn't want you to think
that I know people use them.

01:06:10:80 01:06:12:20
They do. Still do.

01:06:12:40 01:06:17:16
I just told someone the day before
yesterday. I said "You know it's amazing

01:06:17:36 01:06:21:20
that as the advent of science
goes at the speed of light,

01:06:21:40 01:06:24:00
186,000 miles per second,

01:06:24:00 01:06:25:12
faster than you can imagine -"

01:06:25:12 01:06:26:48
no one knows how fast that is

01:06:26:68 01:06:28:00
[inaudible],

01:06:28:48 01:06:31:40
I said "did you know
that the majority of the human beings

01:06:31:24 01:06:37:36
on this earth still
believe in mysticism more than science?"

01:06:39:36 01:06:42:51
I say that for the simple reason
that even for doctors,

01:06:42:52 01:06:44:92
Dr. Haynes, that in a part of our cultural

01:06:44:92 01:06:46:88
training, why I keep going
back to culture, you see,

01:06:46:88 01:06:48:40
you have to be careful.

01:06:48:24 01:06:52:24
What I meant by that was
you have to deal with the person

01:06:52:44 01:06:55:60
in the environment
in which they got their problem.

01:06:55:80 01:06:59:28
You cannot take it away
from them by some magic.

01:07:01:40 01:07:06:52
You have to help them learn
to live with it comfortably.

01:07:07:88 01:07:10:36
So my patients all loved me, so they said

01:07:10:56 01:07:13:92
this guy
really works on my problem. See?

01:07:15:36 01:07:18:64
That's what I did.
If I could not solve it,

01:07:18:84 01:07:22:72
then I sent them
to someone else who could.

01:07:25:16 01:07:29:44
The one thing they knew was I did
not know very much or nothing.

01:07:29:64 01:07:34:44
Since I didn't know, I already knew I
didn't know, I was happy I didn't know,

01:07:34:64 01:07:38:00
but I always was happy
that I knew someone who did.

01:07:38:20 01:07:39:44
Isn't that amazing?

01:07:41:81 01:07:44:68
[laughter]

01:07:44:76 01:07:45:92
Any other questions?

01:07:48:10 01:07:50:71
- [inaudible]
Just a follow up one for that.

01:07:50:72 01:07:55:84
What I'm hearing you say
is that the patient's

01:07:55:88 01:07:59:29
enormous respect for you

01:07:59:43 01:08:04:70
as the doctor was a key element
in convincing the patient

01:08:04:70 01:08:07:23
that you could remove that hex.

01:08:07:24 01:08:09:50
How- how significant do you
think that is?

01:08:09:25 01:08:12:55
You just said you think that

01:08:12:56 01:08:16:44
most people still have a very -
believe in mysticism

01:08:16:44 01:08:19:41
and that more than science.
How important is

01:08:19:44 01:08:22:81
this respect for the doctor
in the healing process?

01:08:23:40 01:08:24:20
- My guess is that if we can get away

01:08:24:20 01:08:25:88
from acute states right away

01:08:25:90 01:08:28:24
where someone is in a dire emergency
where every one has to be

01:08:28:33 01:08:31:88
done right away and let's say the patient
just came in a doctor's office.

01:08:31:88 01:08:33:34
You see the first encounters -

01:08:33:34 01:08:34:96
and I don't know
how many there is and I'm sure someone has

01:08:34:96 01:08:37:28
done a study somewhere that we could go
look on a shelf and look up the reference

01:08:37:48 01:08:41:56
and find out how many encounters
it takes for the patient to have decided

01:08:41:76 01:08:45:60
this is really the person with whom I
wish to entrust my life. Remember now

01:08:45:80 01:08:49:16
you talking about somebody's life here.
You might not think of it like that,

01:08:49:16 01:08:50:24
but you know you're talking about

01:08:50:40 01:08:53:20
the most valuable thing
that every human being possesses.

01:08:53:20 01:08:55:20
And for me to walk in my- in your office

01:08:55:40 01:09:00:56
today and put it on you that you
can be responsible for my life.

01:09:00:71 01:09:01:76
That's an absurdity.

01:09:01:96 01:09:04:16
No human being does that.

01:09:04:48 01:09:09:80
They have a time in which they have
to decide in encounters back and forth,

01:09:09:28 01:09:11:40
is this the person I can trust?

01:09:11:40 01:09:13:20
I mean, it never gets spoken in words

01:09:13:40 01:09:18:40
in a sense,
but it's always active in their minds.

01:09:18:23 01:09:21:80
So what the doctor has to spend his time
doing initially,

01:09:21:28 01:09:25:52
if he is to be successful,
is finding out something about the person.

01:09:25:52 01:09:27:68
We used to wonder why they
taught psychiatry for the whole

01:09:27:88 01:09:31:84
four years at Howard. And what- at some point
they taught four years of psychiatry.

01:09:32:40 01:09:35:16
And what that was about was,
they say most of the encounters

01:09:35:16 01:09:36:76
you're going to have are
with things that you

01:09:36:96 01:09:43:32
are asking about. How to deal with the
person as a person, not their illness.

01:09:45:92 01:09:47:62
Now, I don't know if that
makes sense to you.

01:09:47:63 01:09:49:56
Do you understand what I mean?

01:09:50:96 01:09:54:68
So you had to understand the person first,

01:09:55:88 01:09:59:76
otherwise, they wouldn't let
you deal with their illness.

01:10:01:38 01:10:02:47
- That's a critical factor.

01:10:02:60 01:10:03:24
- That's all I'm saying.

01:10:03:32 01:10:04:85
So they really had - they had to have -

01:10:04:85 01:10:07:12
the first - the patient
really has to have trust

01:10:07:32 01:10:11:96
and confidence in the doctor who they are
now going to. Otherwise all is lost.

01:10:12:60 01:10:13:96
I don't care how much money they spend,

01:10:13:96 01:10:15:78
I don't care how good
your instructions you give.

01:10:15:98 01:10:17:80
I used to tell people all the time,

01:10:17:80 01:10:19:44
you'd be shocked. If they
conducted a survey today -

01:10:19:44 01:10:20:76
go out to the garage and ask every

01:10:20:96 01:10:24:76
patient, every doctor they saw, I want
you to tell me of all the things they told

01:10:24:76 01:10:26:24
you to do that you're going
to do when you get home.

01:10:26:40 01:10:27:80
You'd be shocked to find out

01:10:27:80 01:10:28:80
more than half of them

01:10:29:00 01:10:30:80
are not gonna do any of them.

01:10:31:52 01:10:34:21
They're not gonna even get a prescription
filled [inaudible].

01:10:38:36 01:10:40:40
The doctor never asked
the patient when they come back,

01:10:40:60 01:10:43:20
as a general rule,
"Did you take my medicine?"

01:10:43:20 01:10:44:56
They asked,
"Do you feel better?"

01:10:44:76 01:10:47:72
What do you think the patient says?
"Yes."

01:10:47:92 01:10:51:00
The doctor is happy and therefore
he goes about his business.

01:10:51:00 01:10:52:78
Patient never got the prescription filled.

01:10:52:78 01:10:53:84
The doctor don't even know that.

01:10:53:84 01:10:55:80
First thing I ask the
patient that came back,

01:10:55:80 01:10:58:24
I said, "Did you get
the prescription filled, Mrs. Jones?"

01:10:58:24 01:11:00:54
She said, "Doctor,
what did you say?"

01:11:00:57 01:11:03:52
I said, "Did you get
the prescription filled?"

01:11:04:48 01:11:05:48
Well, they found I was going to ask

01:11:05:68 01:11:08:36
so they had to tell me
when they first came in.

01:11:10:32 01:11:14:76
So I found out they weren't
even getting them filled.

01:11:15:56 01:11:18:80
I said, "Why don't you get
a prescription filled?"

01:11:18:80 01:11:21:24
They said, "Well, doctor, you know,
when I left, I felt so much better.

01:11:21:44 01:11:23:20
I didn't think I needed it."

01:11:24:68 01:11:27:40
They had all kind of excuses,
but their blood pressure was still high,

01:11:27:40 01:11:29:24
I'm saying to you
I had to get them on medicine,

01:11:29:24 01:11:31:16
so I had to sit and find a way to convince

01:11:31:16 01:11:33:60
them that they really needed to get
their prescriptions filled.

01:11:33:60 01:11:35:40
They didn't get the prescriptions filled.

01:11:35:40 01:11:37:40
Has anyone ever conducted a survey,
Dr. Haynes, to find out

01:11:37:40 01:11:38:44
how many patients who went back

01:11:38:64 01:11:41:56
to the garage that never even took
the doctor's instructions seriously enough

01:11:41:73 01:11:43:28
to even take them home?

01:11:43:28 01:11:44:64
So when their families ask them,

01:11:44:64 01:11:46:68
"What did the doctor tell you?"
they couldn't tell them.

01:11:46:71 01:11:50:16
When they called the doctor and the
doctor tell them all these things,

01:11:50:36 01:11:52:10
the patient had none of the above.

01:11:52:12 01:11:55:57
- I believe it.
[inaudible]

01:11:56:74 01:11:58:19
- Wh- why is that?

01:11:58:20 01:11:59:68
- Well, you know,
I'm not so sure I'm bright

01:11:59:88 01:12:02:76
enough to answer the why
that, in the way you're asking it.

01:12:02:76 01:12:04:28
I'm sure someone here knows it.

01:12:04:28 01:12:06:64
If I were to- Dr. Haynes
might be better prepared to say

01:12:06:84 01:12:09:32
who that person - or who those
persons are that say to you.

01:12:09:52 01:12:13:32
But somewhere somebody knows
why we are like we are.

01:12:13:32 01:12:14:72
And it's not -
I'm talking about every patient.

01:12:14:72 01:12:16:36
I'm not talking about - nothing
about no color.

01:12:16:36 01:12:19:44
I mean, most patients, most human
beings are not taking medicine.

01:12:19:64 01:12:22:76
I'm just telling you. Certainly not
like it was prescribed,

01:12:22:96 01:12:26:44
if at all, including the doctor.

01:12:26:48 01:12:28:98
[Laughter]

01:12:28:98 01:12:30:79
- Especially the doctor.

01:12:30:80 01:12:32:64
- You know, so I'm saying, so
I don't want you to go away

01:12:32:64 01:12:34:68
thinking there was some
patient who was unintelligent,

01:12:34:68 01:12:37:36
understand?
I'm talking about the doctor himself.

01:12:37:36 01:12:39:72
He goes to see a doctor.
He writes the prescription.

01:12:39:92 01:12:42:64
He goes then and take, what,
a day of the medicine? Two days?

01:12:42:64 01:12:43:48
The next thing it's gone.

01:12:43:48 01:12:44:65
So you're asking me, say "Well what ha...?

01:12:44:65 01:12:46:44
He says "Well, no I felt
better two days from now."

01:12:46:57 01:12:47:72
Says, "I'm all - I'm all right."
You know what I'm saying?

01:12:47:72 01:12:50:80
He says "But you had
strep sore throat and all -"

01:12:50:80 01:12:52:36
And I'm really serious about
this because I heard [inaudible]

01:12:52:56 01:12:54:70
telling the doctor this.
[Laughter]

01:12:54:70 01:12:57:96
He said "You'll end up
with all these antibodies.

01:12:57:96 01:12:59:52
Your renal function in ten years

01:12:59:72 01:13:02:36
from now will be
gone and you won't understand it."

01:13:02:56 01:13:03:96
He said "I understand all of it."

01:13:03:96 01:13:05:32
Do you think he
went back and took the medicine?

01:13:05:52 01:13:06:84
Absolutely not.

01:13:08:76 01:13:11:80
What I'm saying is it's not
necessarily what we can say-

01:13:12:00 01:13:15:68
I'm talking about physicians who really
know better themselves.

01:13:17:24 01:13:19:52
Don't - now you ask
an interesting question.

01:13:19:52 01:13:21:45
All I can tell you what
the human spirit is

01:13:21:65 01:13:23:48
that defies me to explain
it to you other than I

01:13:23:68 01:13:26:48
can tell you,
it is so overriding in a doctor-patient

01:13:26:68 01:13:29:96
interaction,
that unless you understand it,

01:13:30:16 01:13:32:56
you are wasting both of your time.

01:13:36:34 01:13:37:55
- That's fascinating.

01:13:38:40 01:13:40:20
- Well,
I don't know if I'd call it fascinating,

01:13:40:40 01:13:43:61
but it's certainly
an interesting subject.

01:13:43:62 01:13:45:68
Again, thanks for having invited me.

01:13:45:88 01:13:49:36
I appreciate the invitation.
Thank y'all for coming.

01:13:49:56 01:13:52:51
[Applause]

01:13:54:48 01:13:57:98
- I'd like to address a couple of things.
The question you were asking

01:13:57:98 01:14:00:16
about Dr. Charles Drew,

01:14:00:36 01:14:05:87
we have a title on our bibliography called
"Charles Drew: Dispelling the Myth,"

01:14:05:87 01:14:11:76
[inaudible]
and more information can be found in the

01:14:11:96 01:14:15:44
fiftieth anniversary edition of
The Aesculapian

01:14:15:64 01:14:20:49
regarding Duke's contribution to
Lincoln Hospital.

01:14:20:50 01:14:21:81
- OK.

01:14:21:92 01:14:22:77
[inaudible]

01:14:22:88 01:14:23:92
Probably left it at home.

01:14:24:12 01:14:26:12
Did he hear that before he left?

01:14:26:32 01:14:29:24
He was the one who asked
the question about Duke, Dr. Holmes.

01:14:29:44 01:14:31:92
Make sure he gets that for him
at some point,

01:14:32:12 01:14:33:16
if you would

01:14:33:36 01:14:35:32
- Okay. We'll see that he gets that.

01:14:35:52 01:14:38:36
- Haynes was trying to figure out
how it was established.

01:14:38:84 01:14:39:92
- And we'd like to

01:14:40:12 01:14:42:80
thank you for giving you -

01:14:42:28 01:14:45:75
-Wow. I didn't charge anything
for coming, you know what I'm saying?

01:14:45:75 01:14:46:87
You're very kind.

01:14:46:87 01:14:49:19
- So we'd like to present you with
a small token.

01:14:49:20 01:14:55:34
- Why thank you. This has DUMC, L,
2-26-99.

01:14:55:35 01:14:57:81
Thank you. You all are very kind.
Appreciate it.

01:14:58:00 01:15:01:91
[Applause]

<end subtitles>